| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week 11:53 - Nov 19 with 4930 views | StokieBlue |
It's from the Guardian so obviously not everyone's cup of tea but:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/19/brexit-class-labour-conser
It's a good and detailed reposte to those who think the Labour leadership would do (or want to do) any better on Brexit or that we need a GE to get them in to sort it all out.
It's a problem without a solution palatable to all sides.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:09 - Nov 19 with 3829 views | TractorWood |
Are the Guardian pro or anti Brexit? They've not made their position clear....... |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:12 - Nov 19 with 3809 views | StokieBlue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:09 - Nov 19 by TractorWood |
Are the Guardian pro or anti Brexit? They've not made their position clear....... |
Irrelevant isn't it?
The article is logically self-contained.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:15 - Nov 19 with 3780 views | No9 |
I remain unconvinced that many MP's on all sides really understand how the EU works, where the UK has benefitted from membership & what leaving actually means
D Raab & N Dories as examples |  | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:15 - Nov 19 with 3800 views | Darth_Koont |
I think there should be a people's vote at the bare minimum. But ... if Labour come out in favour of that doesn't that make it less likely?
Personally, I'd prefer a mea culpa from the Tories and May's government, and we put Brexit into row Z. But that's not going to happen by choice or what's right for the country. It'll be through them seeing their party in utter disarray and carrying the can (as they should). Labour getting involved and turning this into a tribal issue will solidify them at the worst time.
Not saying this passive position is by design or by accident and Corbyn thinks he's assisting the exit from the EU he wants. Either way, I think it's doing the opposite to weaken the government's position and especially the will of the media and supposed electoral support for a hard exit. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:19 - Nov 19 with 3769 views | footers |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:12 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue |
Irrelevant isn't it?
The article is logically self-contained.
SB |
Think he was maybe trying to draw an equivalence with Labour's position.
"It's a problem without a solution palatable to all sides." Spot on.
Or maybe we're all overlooking the easiest solution: leaders seconded to their rival's party until 2022. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:23 - Nov 19 with 3749 views | lowhouseblue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:15 - Nov 19 by Darth_Koont |
I think there should be a people's vote at the bare minimum. But ... if Labour come out in favour of that doesn't that make it less likely?
Personally, I'd prefer a mea culpa from the Tories and May's government, and we put Brexit into row Z. But that's not going to happen by choice or what's right for the country. It'll be through them seeing their party in utter disarray and carrying the can (as they should). Labour getting involved and turning this into a tribal issue will solidify them at the worst time.
Not saying this passive position is by design or by accident and Corbyn thinks he's assisting the exit from the EU he wants. Either way, I think it's doing the opposite to weaken the government's position and especially the will of the media and supposed electoral support for a hard exit. |
if it wasn't for the 52% who voted for it, that would make sense. the 52% rather rule out row z. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:25 - Nov 19 with 3734 views | StokieBlue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:19 - Nov 19 by footers |
Think he was maybe trying to draw an equivalence with Labour's position.
"It's a problem without a solution palatable to all sides." Spot on.
Or maybe we're all overlooking the easiest solution: leaders seconded to their rival's party until 2022. |
I wasn't sure if that was his point or not. Still don't see why you would want to draw and equivalence between the opposition party and a media outlet - it serves no purpose.
If the article is right then doesn't really matter which of these leaders in is charge of which party.
SB [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 12:26]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:30 - Nov 19 with 3694 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:25 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue |
I wasn't sure if that was his point or not. Still don't see why you would want to draw and equivalence between the opposition party and a media outlet - it serves no purpose.
If the article is right then doesn't really matter which of these leaders in is charge of which party.
SB [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 12:26]
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Indeed. I posted this yesterday.
Extending Article 50 for a People’s Vote is not a formality, and might even be refused. It requires the agreement of all 27 EU members and I would imagine the commision weill extract a heavy price.
From what I have read, the EU will not renegotiate the agreement. It's the only deal in town so a new leader or a new government will make no difference. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:31 - Nov 19 with 3683 views | footers |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:25 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue |
I wasn't sure if that was his point or not. Still don't see why you would want to draw and equivalence between the opposition party and a media outlet - it serves no purpose.
If the article is right then doesn't really matter which of these leaders in is charge of which party.
SB [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 12:26]
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Glad you could see that as well! Thought I might need to pick up some more tinfoil from the shop.
Merely jesting with the last part. There is no chance of anyone delivering a Brexit that pleases everyone. Or indeed remaining, which I now can honestly see as more of an option- not sure if the public would agree though.
All of this was caused by Cameron's brinkmanship in a very hostile media environment. That environment seems to have calmed down somewhat, especially with Dacre gone, so do wonder whether remain would have more traction now that everyone is so weary of Brexit and aware of its potential damage. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:32 - Nov 19 with 3681 views | Darth_Koont |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:23 - Nov 19 by lowhouseblue |
if it wasn't for the 52% who voted for it, that would make sense. the 52% rather rule out row z. |
The situation has moved on from May 2016.
It's time to look after the 100% now we know where we are and most of the lies have been exposed. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:34 - Nov 19 with 3674 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:15 - Nov 19 by No9 |
I remain unconvinced that many MP's on all sides really understand how the EU works, where the UK has benefitted from membership & what leaving actually means
D Raab & N Dories as examples |
Dorries. Mays deal is a bad one as it will leave us with no MEPs. Startling. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:35 - Nov 19 with 3661 views | No9 |
His last paragraph is the most telling.
Over the week-end it became more obvious that the brexiteers will do everythign they can to get a no deal, that is the only way they will be satisfied.
Cameron knew what he was doing.
If labour want to challenge they have to change their leader if for no other reaon than stopping the media concentrating on him.
It's been a mess since ted Heath signed up and the brexitees are too close to let go now | | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:45 - Nov 19 with 3634 views | lowhouseblue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:32 - Nov 19 by Darth_Koont |
The situation has moved on from May 2016.
It's time to look after the 100% now we know where we are and most of the lies have been exposed. |
it hasn't moved in the sense that the country and both parties are still split down the middle. people like you and rees mogg still shouting with certainty from either side is fine, but there's still no consensus or agreement. as ever looking after the 100% just means doing what you approve of. [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 12:47]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:53 - Nov 19 with 3590 views | Guthrum |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:30 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed. I posted this yesterday.
Extending Article 50 for a People’s Vote is not a formality, and might even be refused. It requires the agreement of all 27 EU members and I would imagine the commision weill extract a heavy price.
From what I have read, the EU will not renegotiate the agreement. It's the only deal in town so a new leader or a new government will make no difference. |
My feeling too.
I even suspect the ERG challenge to May is nothing more than a spoiling attack to waste time and push us closer to No Deal. The fact they don't seem to have a candidate (or even particularly care) who might replace her lends weight to that.
Also pointless, because I very much doubt May will get anything through the HoC anyway, if Labour are determined to oppose, plus the LibDems and the SNP likely to follow suit, on top of her own rebels. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 13:18 - Nov 19 with 3515 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:30 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed. I posted this yesterday.
Extending Article 50 for a People’s Vote is not a formality, and might even be refused. It requires the agreement of all 27 EU members and I would imagine the commision weill extract a heavy price.
From what I have read, the EU will not renegotiate the agreement. It's the only deal in town so a new leader or a new government will make no difference. |
Things seem even more uncertain as every day passes Today May has insisted neither side want the backstop to. come into play then adds she wants if sorted before the GE sbicht jeans May 2022. Meanwhile word from.the EU is it could be extended to the end of 2022.
No wonder so many people don't beljeve anything they are told. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 13:26 - Nov 19 with 3484 views | No9 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:53 - Nov 19 by Guthrum |
My feeling too.
I even suspect the ERG challenge to May is nothing more than a spoiling attack to waste time and push us closer to No Deal. The fact they don't seem to have a candidate (or even particularly care) who might replace her lends weight to that.
Also pointless, because I very much doubt May will get anything through the HoC anyway, if Labour are determined to oppose, plus the LibDems and the SNP likely to follow suit, on top of her own rebels. |
It is pretty obvious the ERG will push this to a no deal if they can.
Over the WE it emerged Kier Starmer wants to get a vote in the HoC to make No Deal illegal.
I don't know if he can work that but if he can it will tell us a lot about the tories IF they don't vote for it.
Not much else | | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 13:37 - Nov 19 with 3462 views | Guthrum |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 13:26 - Nov 19 by No9 |
It is pretty obvious the ERG will push this to a no deal if they can.
Over the WE it emerged Kier Starmer wants to get a vote in the HoC to make No Deal illegal.
I don't know if he can work that but if he can it will tell us a lot about the tories IF they don't vote for it.
Not much else |
Not sure that would be feasible. After all, you're trying to make something illegal which may turn out to be unavoidable. Especially given the low likelihood of any deal getting through the HoC and the short time remaining. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 14:13 - Nov 19 with 3408 views | Basuco |
There needs to be another vote, this time we will all know the facts of what type of exit deal is on the table and how it compares to staying in, at the time of the initial vote no one knew any facts about what being in or out would mean. The big problem remains that some people and MP's are anti or pro EU no matter what is on offer. |  | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 14:28 - Nov 19 with 3369 views | Steve_M |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 13:18 - Nov 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Things seem even more uncertain as every day passes Today May has insisted neither side want the backstop to. come into play then adds she wants if sorted before the GE sbicht jeans May 2022. Meanwhile word from.the EU is it could be extended to the end of 2022.
No wonder so many people don't beljeve anything they are told. |
Is 2022 going to be long enough to have worked out no trade deals and rebuild the British economy? I very much doubt it and would expect 'transition' to last well beyond that. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 14:45 - Nov 19 with 3327 views | BlueBadger |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 14:28 - Nov 19 by Steve_M |
Is 2022 going to be long enough to have worked out no trade deals and rebuild the British economy? I very much doubt it and would expect 'transition' to last well beyond that. |
I'm kind of expecting the EU, given the level of debate, competence and general maturity shown by our politicians, to take the same approach one would take to a stupid toddler and basically say 'sure, you can drive daddy's car NEXT weekend'. Multiple indefinite extensions will have Brexiteers happy we're 'definitely leaving without copping on that we aren't. [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 14:47]
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 14:53 - Nov 19 with 3304 views | No9 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 14:13 - Nov 19 by Basuco |
There needs to be another vote, this time we will all know the facts of what type of exit deal is on the table and how it compares to staying in, at the time of the initial vote no one knew any facts about what being in or out would mean. The big problem remains that some people and MP's are anti or pro EU no matter what is on offer. |
MP's are pressing Mrs May to publish the economic forecasts made but so far she refuses | | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:12 - Nov 19 with 3290 views | homer_123 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 14:13 - Nov 19 by Basuco |
There needs to be another vote, this time we will all know the facts of what type of exit deal is on the table and how it compares to staying in, at the time of the initial vote no one knew any facts about what being in or out would mean. The big problem remains that some people and MP's are anti or pro EU no matter what is on offer. |
Here's the thing though.
Whilst we know what leaving will mean in terms of rules, borders et al and what staying will mean - the unknowns still remain. No expert can tell us what leaving or staying will mean in terms of the actual future and whether it will be a good thing or a bad thing - they can't - it's an impossible answer to provide - at the very very best all you can get are estimated forecasts.
We are still voting 'blind' in some respects.
There are simply no certainties with staying or leaving other than we know what the trading rules might be - again, at best we can agree whether those terms are more favourable or not but what the long term outcome is, no one can say, with any certainty.
Also, staying.....how do people know feel about staying in the EU if we are heading down the route of an EU army for example - would that be talked about during a second referendum? Or, that decision such as the Canadian Trade Deal might no longer be approved by each member state but centrally (in the wake of Wallonia twice voting against it and the EU stating that such deals are 'too big and important' to have that happen in the future)? [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 15:21]
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:15 - Nov 19 with 3281 views | No9 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:12 - Nov 19 by homer_123 |
Here's the thing though.
Whilst we know what leaving will mean in terms of rules, borders et al and what staying will mean - the unknowns still remain. No expert can tell us what leaving or staying will mean in terms of the actual future and whether it will be a good thing or a bad thing - they can't - it's an impossible answer to provide - at the very very best all you can get are estimated forecasts.
We are still voting 'blind' in some respects.
There are simply no certainties with staying or leaving other than we know what the trading rules might be - again, at best we can agree whether those terms are more favourable or not but what the long term outcome is, no one can say, with any certainty.
Also, staying.....how do people know feel about staying in the EU if we are heading down the route of an EU army for example - would that be talked about during a second referendum? Or, that decision such as the Canadian Trade Deal might no longer be approved by each member state but centrally (in the wake of Wallonia twice voting against it and the EU stating that such deals are 'too big and important' to have that happen in the future)? [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 15:21]
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Remaining should mean the status quo, at least in the short to medium term.
Maybe IF we remained people would start voting for proper people to be MEP's
Maybe pigs will fly | | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:20 - Nov 19 with 3272 views | homer_123 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:15 - Nov 19 by No9 |
Remaining should mean the status quo, at least in the short to medium term.
Maybe IF we remained people would start voting for proper people to be MEP's
Maybe pigs will fly |
I don't disagree with any of that - just pointing out that, as you have a vote, why you should consider the wider potential implications of being part of the EU.
Being part of the EU isn't merely about trade or movement of people. One of the reasons we have never fully thrown our hat into the ring is because we have some fundamental differences in views of what the long term EU plan is about (it's one of the reasons why the likes of Denmark, for example, rather like us being part of the EU, we are often a voice of reason).
However, I've noticed over the more recent past (Cameron's the most recent example) that our ability to influence from the outside appears to have waned - and therefore begs the question of do we wish to part of the 'wider' EU project?
Are we happy to keep the status quo now but at the cost of finding ourselves involved in something we never really signed up for in terms of how the EU works in the future, especially if we can long influence as we once did? Or is it too late and we are now so small and irrelevant that it no longer maters and we should simply just go all in and be done with it? [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 15:22]
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