| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 23:53 - Sep 19 with 20011 views | Ryorry |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b095zf2s
Gripping but horrible stuff. Plenty of lessons to be learned, including that political leaders need to listen a helluva lot better to what their populations (or segments of them anyway) are saying (cf our referendum vote last June). |  |
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| on 09:10 - Sep 20 with 9008 views | _ |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 10:07 - Sep 20 with 8967 views | No9 |
I shall have to watch this programme.
A couple of years ago there were articles in the UK media about nazi activities in Hamburg.
I sent the articles (via e-mail) to people who I was doing business with - because their offices were in the area these activities were supposedly happening.
They were very surprised as they knew nothing of them and wondered why the UK media chose to present such stories to the UK people.
So I shall view with interest | | | |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 10:16 - Sep 20 with 8956 views | Guthrum |
You have to bear in mind the "train crash factor". Due to the current atmosphere, even fairly insignificant gatherings of extremists in out-of-the-way places are getting coverage from the media - and attention from counter-demonstrators - which they would not have done otherwise. Thus creating a feeling that there are more of them, which is not necessarily the case.
This, in turn, raises their profile, helps them to network with other groups (which they were often doing anyway) and gather in sympathisers who were otherwise isolated. Political groupings in search of voters start pandering to their agendas - or reacting strongly against them - drawing extremist views into the mainstream by proxy.
Eventually, either the media loses interest and they sink back into the shadows, or it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy before being diluted by the mainstream. Or in a worst-case scenario, provokes a crisis which leads to downfall (c.f. Nazi Germany, Islamic State). |  |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 10:27 - Sep 20 with 8945 views | Ryorry |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 10:16 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
You have to bear in mind the "train crash factor". Due to the current atmosphere, even fairly insignificant gatherings of extremists in out-of-the-way places are getting coverage from the media - and attention from counter-demonstrators - which they would not have done otherwise. Thus creating a feeling that there are more of them, which is not necessarily the case.
This, in turn, raises their profile, helps them to network with other groups (which they were often doing anyway) and gather in sympathisers who were otherwise isolated. Political groupings in search of voters start pandering to their agendas - or reacting strongly against them - drawing extremist views into the mainstream by proxy.
Eventually, either the media loses interest and they sink back into the shadows, or it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy before being diluted by the mainstream. Or in a worst-case scenario, provokes a crisis which leads to downfall (c.f. Nazi Germany, Islamic State). |
It wasn't "fairly insignificant gatherings" being shown on the prog Guthers but large numbers. One of the most chilling scenes was an open air hustings given by AFD (Alternative Fur Deutschland, the far right party) with a crowd of several thousand applauding and cheering as they listened to the speaker - who may have been young-ish, bearded and blond, but in all other respects, brought to mind footage of Hitler doing the same before the outbreak of WW2. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 11:04 - Sep 20 with 8914 views | Guthrum |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 10:27 - Sep 20 by Ryorry |
It wasn't "fairly insignificant gatherings" being shown on the prog Guthers but large numbers. One of the most chilling scenes was an open air hustings given by AFD (Alternative Fur Deutschland, the far right party) with a crowd of several thousand applauding and cheering as they listened to the speaker - who may have been young-ish, bearded and blond, but in all other respects, brought to mind footage of Hitler doing the same before the outbreak of WW2. |
As per my second paragraph. However, it would be interesting to know from how far afield the attendees at that rally came (extremists will travel to participate). For all the hard right is bigging itself up, their parties have fallen short every time when it comes to elections (Austria, the Netherlands, France, the UK).
Only in Eastern Europe (to which, of course, approximately one third of modern Germany once belonged) do they have much traction (Hungary, Poland). A lot of that has to do with the feeling of being economically left behind, combined with a nationalist reaction against former Soviet dominance. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 11:08 - Sep 20 with 8902 views | No9 |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 10:27 - Sep 20 by Ryorry |
It wasn't "fairly insignificant gatherings" being shown on the prog Guthers but large numbers. One of the most chilling scenes was an open air hustings given by AFD (Alternative Fur Deutschland, the far right party) with a crowd of several thousand applauding and cheering as they listened to the speaker - who may have been young-ish, bearded and blond, but in all other respects, brought to mind footage of Hitler doing the same before the outbreak of WW2. |
& addressed by Mr Farage?
& our government talk about limiting extremisim without addressing brexit extremists - maybe because some are in their own party? | | | |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 11:21 - Sep 20 with 8893 views | blue_oyster |
One of the first things that has to be achieved to establish a totalitarian state or despotism in which mass murder can be carried out, is the suppression of any free speech against that regime, so the majority of the population will not know what is really going on. They achieve this by branding anyone who disagrees with them as 'extremists', so these people, be they journalists, broadcasters and rival politicians can then be thrown into jail and the state can control the propaganda to achieve its evil aim. Think on this. |  |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 11:46 - Sep 20 with 8873 views | Guthrum |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 11:21 - Sep 20 by blue_oyster |
One of the first things that has to be achieved to establish a totalitarian state or despotism in which mass murder can be carried out, is the suppression of any free speech against that regime, so the majority of the population will not know what is really going on. They achieve this by branding anyone who disagrees with them as 'extremists', so these people, be they journalists, broadcasters and rival politicians can then be thrown into jail and the state can control the propaganda to achieve its evil aim. Think on this. |
On the other hand, that doesn't mean that society should fail to censure people who actually promulgate extreme views (e.g. the oppression of, or violence towards, racial/national/sectarian/sexual groups; the promotion of violent direct action to achieve their agenda).
After all, totalitarian dictatorships also use social division and the creation of "other" communities to rally support behind themselves (e.g. Nazis and Jews, Islamic State and Christians/Shi'a/Yazidis, the USSR and well-off farmers and businessmen, the Khmer Rouge and the ethnic Virtnamese minority, Myanmar's government and Rohingya Muslims). | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:07 - Sep 20 with 8791 views | chicoazul |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 11:21 - Sep 20 by blue_oyster |
One of the first things that has to be achieved to establish a totalitarian state or despotism in which mass murder can be carried out, is the suppression of any free speech against that regime, so the majority of the population will not know what is really going on. They achieve this by branding anyone who disagrees with them as 'extremists', so these people, be they journalists, broadcasters and rival politicians can then be thrown into jail and the state can control the propaganda to achieve its evil aim. Think on this. |
This is true.
It is *also* true that anyone who calls themselves a Nazi or wears the flag deserves their sh!t pushed in. They abrogate their right to freedom of expression and freedom from getting punched in the mouth many times. |  |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:19 - Sep 20 with 8776 views | Ryorry |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 11:04 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
As per my second paragraph. However, it would be interesting to know from how far afield the attendees at that rally came (extremists will travel to participate). For all the hard right is bigging itself up, their parties have fallen short every time when it comes to elections (Austria, the Netherlands, France, the UK).
Only in Eastern Europe (to which, of course, approximately one third of modern Germany once belonged) do they have much traction (Hungary, Poland). A lot of that has to do with the feeling of being economically left behind, combined with a nationalist reaction against former Soviet dominance. |
Take your point, and I should have stressed that the people actually committing the violence were a very small number (having some roots in the Dynamo something - Dortmund? forget, sorry - Ultras).
A secondary chilling thing was that there was a large police station exactly opposite the petrol station where the gang of extremists who took action (bombing refugee hostels eg) regularly met. Yet no action was taken by the police to crack down on them. You have to wonder if there was some covert police sympathising, blind eyes being turned (something not mentioned in the prog). It was only when the state prosecutor (forget official title) decided enough was enough that the individuals and group were actually prosecuted for terrorism and attempted murder. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:23 - Sep 20 with 8765 views | Ryorry |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 11:08 - Sep 20 by No9 |
& addressed by Mr Farage?
& our government talk about limiting extremisim without addressing brexit extremists - maybe because some are in their own party? |
Nothing like Farage really - not to me anyway, on the one hearing.
And not heard/seen any "Brexit extremists" go that far either - EDL or whatever they call themselves now, yes. Swastikas & other neo-Nazi garbage was found in the homes of the perpetrators. [Post edited 20 Sep 2017 13:27]
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:25 - Sep 20 with 8758 views | blue_oyster |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:07 - Sep 20 by chicoazul |
This is true.
It is *also* true that anyone who calls themselves a Nazi or wears the flag deserves their sh!t pushed in. They abrogate their right to freedom of expression and freedom from getting punched in the mouth many times. |
I don't think I'm able to agree with that sentiment. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:26 - Sep 20 with 8757 views | SpruceMoose |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:25 - Sep 20 by blue_oyster |
I don't think I'm able to agree with that sentiment. |
There's a surprise. |  |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:37 - Sep 20 with 8732 views | Guthrum |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:19 - Sep 20 by Ryorry |
Take your point, and I should have stressed that the people actually committing the violence were a very small number (having some roots in the Dynamo something - Dortmund? forget, sorry - Ultras).
A secondary chilling thing was that there was a large police station exactly opposite the petrol station where the gang of extremists who took action (bombing refugee hostels eg) regularly met. Yet no action was taken by the police to crack down on them. You have to wonder if there was some covert police sympathising, blind eyes being turned (something not mentioned in the prog). It was only when the state prosecutor (forget official title) decided enough was enough that the individuals and group were actually prosecuted for terrorism and attempted murder. |
That second can be an issue. After all, the police are themselves part of the community in which they serve. Plus until they actually break the law (or are discovered to have done so), there isn't much the police can do. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 14:11 - Sep 20 with 8687 views | No9 |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:19 - Sep 20 by Ryorry |
Take your point, and I should have stressed that the people actually committing the violence were a very small number (having some roots in the Dynamo something - Dortmund? forget, sorry - Ultras).
A secondary chilling thing was that there was a large police station exactly opposite the petrol station where the gang of extremists who took action (bombing refugee hostels eg) regularly met. Yet no action was taken by the police to crack down on them. You have to wonder if there was some covert police sympathising, blind eyes being turned (something not mentioned in the prog). It was only when the state prosecutor (forget official title) decided enough was enough that the individuals and group were actually prosecuted for terrorism and attempted murder. |
Your comment on the police is interesting.
As it took the state prosecutor to tell them to act it says a lot for the freedom of speech which they value very much as it was something their forefathers never had. | | | |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 14:49 - Sep 20 with 8659 views | chicoazul |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:25 - Sep 20 by blue_oyster |
I don't think I'm able to agree with that sentiment. |
I don't see the problem with it. If you're a Nazi, if that is your creed, if you wear that flag and support that ideology, you are a kernt and should be smashed in the face. You have expressed yourself, exercised your freedom of speech, now reap the consequences. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:28 - Sep 20 with 8623 views | blue_oyster |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 14:49 - Sep 20 by chicoazul |
I don't see the problem with it. If you're a Nazi, if that is your creed, if you wear that flag and support that ideology, you are a kernt and should be smashed in the face. You have expressed yourself, exercised your freedom of speech, now reap the consequences. |
I know you don't. But I do see a big problem with advocating violence against people you disagree with. It's the cause of the problem in the first place. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:33 - Sep 20 with 8607 views | Ryorry |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:37 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
That second can be an issue. After all, the police are themselves part of the community in which they serve. Plus until they actually break the law (or are discovered to have done so), there isn't much the police can do. |
Yes, but they had already broken the law, simply been prosecuted under far, far less serious charges than the attempted murder & terrorism they should have been - therefore instead of being jailed, they were free to continue their terrorist campaign. I think the regional anti-terrorist unit was actually based at that particular police station! | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:36 - Sep 20 with 8595 views | WeWereZombies |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 13:23 - Sep 20 by Ryorry |
Nothing like Farage really - not to me anyway, on the one hearing.
And not heard/seen any "Brexit extremists" go that far either - EDL or whatever they call themselves now, yes. Swastikas & other neo-Nazi garbage was found in the homes of the perpetrators. [Post edited 20 Sep 2017 13:27]
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No9 posted a link to an article with a photo of Farage at an AfD conference last week:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/top-nazi-s-grandchild-hosts-nigel-farage-at-a [Post edited 20 Sep 2017 15:39]
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:39 - Sep 20 with 8582 views | Ryorry |
Oh really? Cripes. Hadn't seen that.
Even so, have never heard Farage himself come out with hate speech like the AFD's at that rally - at least not overtly ... | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:53 - Sep 20 with 8546 views | chicoazul |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:28 - Sep 20 by blue_oyster |
I know you don't. But I do see a big problem with advocating violence against people you disagree with. It's the cause of the problem in the first place. |
This implies that Nazism is a point of view that deserves respect. You and I and everyone else know what Nazism stands for. We went to war with the Nazis because we disagreed with them. That was not the wrong course of action to take.
Nazism is not a mental disorder that one cannot help. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:54 - Sep 20 with 8536 views | No9 |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:39 - Sep 20 by Ryorry |
Oh really? Cripes. Hadn't seen that.
Even so, have never heard Farage himself come out with hate speech like the AFD's at that rally - at least not overtly ... |
It doesn't appear to have been widely reported (?)
Except the Mirror says he got a standing ovation.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/standing-ovation-nigel-farage-far-11137464
This brings me back to my point about the tories, they appear to be overlooking the likes of UKip & their bile | | | |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 16:01 - Sep 20 with 8528 views | Ryorry |
Jeez. Thanks for the link, gonna have to listen later tho, time v. scarce atm. | |
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| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 16:07 - Sep 20 with 8511 views | blue_oyster |
| 'Germany's New Nazis' - shocking Panorama docu just finished on BBC1 on 15:53 - Sep 20 by chicoazul |
This implies that Nazism is a point of view that deserves respect. You and I and everyone else know what Nazism stands for. We went to war with the Nazis because we disagreed with them. That was not the wrong course of action to take.
Nazism is not a mental disorder that one cannot help. |
Your implication, not mine. Every voice, right or wrong, should be heard. It can then be dismissed or agreed with accordingly. | |
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