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For the history buffs, today marks the tipping point 83 years ago for one of the key events of WW2. After 15 September the Germans abandoned any hope of gaining air superiority over this country and the proposed invasion was postponed soon after.
The battle was fought from July to October. By the end of it the German air force was weaker, the RAF growing ever stronger. While it might be starved out of the war, Britain could never be invaded.
The losses particularly in highly trained aircrew was something the German air force never really recovered from. They’d pay dearly for it. Their organisation, resupply, training set up in particular was geared towards a short, tactical war. In no way were they prepared for the strategic war to come. Nor did they have the equipment for it.
The 15 Sept is chosen primarily for the number of claims (185). The number actually lost was about 60 - still a considerable number. One particular incident was filmed - the falling of a Dornier 17 on Victoria Station/Buckingham Palace after being rammed by Sgt Ray Holmes. You can still see the scars on the outside wall of the station in Wilton Road from parts of the Dornier. Living history.
That wasn’t the only incident for Sgt Holmes that day. He earlier wound up with oil all over the windscreen of his Hurricane after Fw Rolf Heitch’s Dornier fired an improvised flame thrower at him. Heitch had nabbed one off the army to try out his idea of frying his attackers. The problem was that at height and speed it didn’t really ignite properly, hence the oil. It actually made him look like his aeroplane was damaged. Because of it the German pilot reckoned he was set upon by half the RAF.
His aircraft eventually came down near Shoreham in Kent and is known as the ‘Castle Farm Dornier’. The gunner on this aircraft died of a bullet wound, the other three survived. Ironically and sadly, the two Spitfire pilots that chased him down Darent Valley, Red Tobin and John Dundas, would be killed in action within a year.
They were all astonishingly brave men.
[Post edited 15 Sep 2023 9:07]
14
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 09:40 - Sep 15 with 2220 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 09:40 - Sep 15 by Keno
For the best description on what it was like to do what these young men did, Geoff Welham’s book First Light is the one to read. It is far and away the best description of what it’s like to learn to fly and then fly in WW2.
With regard to the Few, Churchills words were well said, but the people that supported them should not be forgotten. From ATA women, to ground crews, factory workers, radar operators/plotters, recovery crews, observer corps etc etc. The work of Bomber Command during this period shouldn’t be forgotten either.
1
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 09:55 - Sep 15 with 2188 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 09:51 - Sep 15 by Churchman
For the best description on what it was like to do what these young men did, Geoff Welham’s book First Light is the one to read. It is far and away the best description of what it’s like to learn to fly and then fly in WW2.
With regard to the Few, Churchills words were well said, but the people that supported them should not be forgotten. From ATA women, to ground crews, factory workers, radar operators/plotters, recovery crews, observer corps etc etc. The work of Bomber Command during this period shouldn’t be forgotten either.
There is a comment attributed to Chamberlain (and others) that of all the things Churchill did the way mobilised the English language was perhaps the most underated.
Its a cracking line but the few could only do what they because of so many
At this point of the war, the Germans were also being assisted by our future ‘allies’ the ever belligerent Soviet Union/Russia, both in terms of training German pilots and supplying fuel and Rae materials. That was a decision that aged well…
1
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 10:05 - Sep 15 with 2175 views
At this point of the war, the Germans were also being assisted by our future ‘allies’ the ever belligerent Soviet Union/Russia, both in terms of training German pilots and supplying fuel and Rae materials. That was a decision that aged well…
The best thing (for the eventual outcome of the war) was Hitler turning on Russia. He certainly bit off more than he could chew there. The war was lost the day he invaded Russia. He just didn't realise it at the time.
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 10:05 - Sep 15 by blueasfook
The best thing (for the eventual outcome of the war) was Hitler turning on Russia. He certainly bit off more than he could chew there. The war was lost the day he invaded Russia. He just didn't realise it at the time.
you could argue he lost the war when the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact pushed the Russian border 300 miles west meaning they would additional ground to cover invading Russia
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 10:05 - Sep 15 by blueasfook
The best thing (for the eventual outcome of the war) was Hitler turning on Russia. He certainly bit off more than he could chew there. The war was lost the day he invaded Russia. He just didn't realise it at the time.
Yes, at least from a Western Europe perspective. Sadly the people of eastern, and some of Central Europe didn’t see freedom for another 70 years.
0
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 10:29 - Sep 15 with 2124 views
The Germans also lost a huge number of planes invading Poland and France which they didn’t recover from either - particularly transport planes. Principally because their planes weren’t very good. Even the me 109 which was developing into a fine fighter by the time of the spread out minor sorties we like to call the Battle of Britain had two glaring flaws. It was virtually running out of range when it wheezed across the channel - and it’s hopeless to undercarriage design made landing something of a lottery leading to vast losses of planes and pilots in landing accidents.
The German aircrew situation in WW2 was especially dire and is best summed up by their aces. German aces had huge kill tallies (obviously all tallies should be taken with pinches of salt), but a large number never made it to the end of the war. German pilots were essentially thrown out at a ridiculous tempo, exhausting them until they inevitably died. They ended up with huge kill totals because they flew so many more sorties than allied equivalents, but with no system to bring through replacements of similar quality.
The Luftwaffe (or Goering at least) never grasped that it's far easier to replace a plane than it is to replace a pilot.
0
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 12:06 - Sep 15 with 2006 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 10:29 - Sep 15 by ElephantintheRoom
The Germans also lost a huge number of planes invading Poland and France which they didn’t recover from either - particularly transport planes. Principally because their planes weren’t very good. Even the me 109 which was developing into a fine fighter by the time of the spread out minor sorties we like to call the Battle of Britain had two glaring flaws. It was virtually running out of range when it wheezed across the channel - and it’s hopeless to undercarriage design made landing something of a lottery leading to vast losses of planes and pilots in landing accidents.
Germany lost over 300 aircraft in the attack on Poland and around 1400 in the defeat of France. The allies lost around 2200. In the Battle of Britain Germany lost just under 2000 aircraft, Britain about 1750. The Poles lost their whole airforce of around 400 aircraft.
The operations conducted in the BoB were not ‘minor’. For the time, nobody had ever seen anything like it. They were often complex, highly skilled (eg the low level attack on Kenley and Biggin 18 August) and full on. Had the battle been lost and Germany gained air superiority over the south of England, Germany still wouldn’t have dared invade but I doubt Churchill would have retained support to continue the war.
A major difference to the outcome of the BoB was Britain and its allies ability to reorganise and replenish which far exceeded Germany’s. Britain was out producing Germany too and the scale of industrial dominance would only grow. Add in the integrated air defence system that the germans never truly understood and Dowding’s clever organisation of Fighter Command and the Luftwaffe faced a world of problems.
Germany’s aircraft for the time were very good. The bombers were front line and the most obsolete of them, the Do17 was being phased out in favour of the excellent Ju88. But as medium bombers, the bomb carrying capacity was limited. The Ju87 was a close support aeroplane. A bomb truck that was one of only two truly vertical dive bombers. It was never designed to mix it with fighters and its slow speed made it near impossible to defend.
The Bf110 twin engine heavy fighter was the best in the world at that time. But it was badly used and its weaknesses in performance (lack of acceleration and agility) made it meat on the table for single seat fighters.
The Bf109 was a fine aircraft in 1940. Heavily armed, fast, astonishing dive and climb performance made it deadly. Fuel injection helped too. It also had a better turning circle than people give it credit for, but only expert pilots would utilise it. Range was short - 20 mins over London providing fuel had be conserved was the max it could stay and that really hindered operations. Landing and taking it off was tricky and of its production of about 35k, a third were lost in landing/take off accidents.
It should not be forgotten that it was one of the early first gen modern fighters of the period. It was a clever design, robust for what it was, easy to service and good enough to be upgraded throughout its life.
[Post edited 15 Sep 2023 12:58]
0
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 12:18 - Sep 15 with 1987 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 11:28 - Sep 15 by Kievthegreat
The German aircrew situation in WW2 was especially dire and is best summed up by their aces. German aces had huge kill tallies (obviously all tallies should be taken with pinches of salt), but a large number never made it to the end of the war. German pilots were essentially thrown out at a ridiculous tempo, exhausting them until they inevitably died. They ended up with huge kill totals because they flew so many more sorties than allied equivalents, but with no system to bring through replacements of similar quality.
The Luftwaffe (or Goering at least) never grasped that it's far easier to replace a plane than it is to replace a pilot.
Yes, they flew their pilots till they died or were captured. A particularly stupid, wasteful way of running an air force. By doing that, the qualitative edge of the Luftwaffe inevitably fell. The BoB really did cost them dear over experienced aircrew.
The rate of over claiming was high on both sides. The Germans of course faced a Russian air force in 1941 that was in a poor state. Inadequate aircraft, inadequate everything at that time. The Luftwaffe also prioritised aced in that the wingman was just that. There to protect the ace’s tail. They racked up huge scores.
In the west, less so but because of the way the Luftwaffe operated, numbers attributed to some pilots were still extraordinary.
0
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 13:40 - Sep 15 with 1913 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 12:06 - Sep 15 by Churchman
Germany lost over 300 aircraft in the attack on Poland and around 1400 in the defeat of France. The allies lost around 2200. In the Battle of Britain Germany lost just under 2000 aircraft, Britain about 1750. The Poles lost their whole airforce of around 400 aircraft.
The operations conducted in the BoB were not ‘minor’. For the time, nobody had ever seen anything like it. They were often complex, highly skilled (eg the low level attack on Kenley and Biggin 18 August) and full on. Had the battle been lost and Germany gained air superiority over the south of England, Germany still wouldn’t have dared invade but I doubt Churchill would have retained support to continue the war.
A major difference to the outcome of the BoB was Britain and its allies ability to reorganise and replenish which far exceeded Germany’s. Britain was out producing Germany too and the scale of industrial dominance would only grow. Add in the integrated air defence system that the germans never truly understood and Dowding’s clever organisation of Fighter Command and the Luftwaffe faced a world of problems.
Germany’s aircraft for the time were very good. The bombers were front line and the most obsolete of them, the Do17 was being phased out in favour of the excellent Ju88. But as medium bombers, the bomb carrying capacity was limited. The Ju87 was a close support aeroplane. A bomb truck that was one of only two truly vertical dive bombers. It was never designed to mix it with fighters and its slow speed made it near impossible to defend.
The Bf110 twin engine heavy fighter was the best in the world at that time. But it was badly used and its weaknesses in performance (lack of acceleration and agility) made it meat on the table for single seat fighters.
The Bf109 was a fine aircraft in 1940. Heavily armed, fast, astonishing dive and climb performance made it deadly. Fuel injection helped too. It also had a better turning circle than people give it credit for, but only expert pilots would utilise it. Range was short - 20 mins over London providing fuel had be conserved was the max it could stay and that really hindered operations. Landing and taking it off was tricky and of its production of about 35k, a third were lost in landing/take off accidents.
It should not be forgotten that it was one of the early first gen modern fighters of the period. It was a clever design, robust for what it was, easy to service and good enough to be upgraded throughout its life.
[Post edited 15 Sep 2023 12:58]
The Battle of Britain was a PR exercise at a time when Britain had nothing much to crow about. Fighter command was split into five regions of which only 2 and a half saw any action. At no point in the entire conflict was it necessary to change that approach - meaning half of allied airmen had their feet up for the entire ‘battle’ and never at any point was there any danger of running out of fighters or pilots.
Indeed the greatest danger to Britain came a few years earlier when the RAF chose the Bolton Paul Defiant with no forward firing guns over the Hurricane as a front line fighter - a decision of such madness that Harry Hawker refused to accept it and built the Hurricane anyway as a private venture.
Even in the relatively busy south east 85% of allied fighter pilots never shot anything down - pilots spent most of their time getting lost or looking for something to shoot at. Contrast these largely ineffectual skirmishes over a short period with The Battle Of Germany - which shows just how far and fast air warfare developed
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 13:40 - Sep 15 by ElephantintheRoom
The Battle of Britain was a PR exercise at a time when Britain had nothing much to crow about. Fighter command was split into five regions of which only 2 and a half saw any action. At no point in the entire conflict was it necessary to change that approach - meaning half of allied airmen had their feet up for the entire ‘battle’ and never at any point was there any danger of running out of fighters or pilots.
Indeed the greatest danger to Britain came a few years earlier when the RAF chose the Bolton Paul Defiant with no forward firing guns over the Hurricane as a front line fighter - a decision of such madness that Harry Hawker refused to accept it and built the Hurricane anyway as a private venture.
Even in the relatively busy south east 85% of allied fighter pilots never shot anything down - pilots spent most of their time getting lost or looking for something to shoot at. Contrast these largely ineffectual skirmishes over a short period with The Battle Of Germany - which shows just how far and fast air warfare developed
“The Battle of Britain was a PR exercise”
That’s quite the take, even for you. Evidently from your posting, you were probably around back then, so I should probably accept your first hand account.
0
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 13:49 - Sep 15 with 1902 views
That’s quite the take, even for you. Evidently from your posting, you were probably around back then, so I should probably accept your first hand account.
He's hilarious isn't he. BoB was the pre-cursor to a german invasion. Goerring had convinced Hitler that the RAF needed to be defeated before they could invade Britain.
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 13:49 - Sep 15 by blueasfook
He's hilarious isn't he. BoB was the pre-cursor to a german invasion. Goerring had convinced Hitler that the RAF needed to be defeated before they could invade Britain.
“He's hilarious isn't he”
Assume by ‘hilarious’ you mean tedious Victor Meldrew wannabe.
0
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 14:00 - Sep 15 with 1889 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 12:06 - Sep 15 by Churchman
Germany lost over 300 aircraft in the attack on Poland and around 1400 in the defeat of France. The allies lost around 2200. In the Battle of Britain Germany lost just under 2000 aircraft, Britain about 1750. The Poles lost their whole airforce of around 400 aircraft.
The operations conducted in the BoB were not ‘minor’. For the time, nobody had ever seen anything like it. They were often complex, highly skilled (eg the low level attack on Kenley and Biggin 18 August) and full on. Had the battle been lost and Germany gained air superiority over the south of England, Germany still wouldn’t have dared invade but I doubt Churchill would have retained support to continue the war.
A major difference to the outcome of the BoB was Britain and its allies ability to reorganise and replenish which far exceeded Germany’s. Britain was out producing Germany too and the scale of industrial dominance would only grow. Add in the integrated air defence system that the germans never truly understood and Dowding’s clever organisation of Fighter Command and the Luftwaffe faced a world of problems.
Germany’s aircraft for the time were very good. The bombers were front line and the most obsolete of them, the Do17 was being phased out in favour of the excellent Ju88. But as medium bombers, the bomb carrying capacity was limited. The Ju87 was a close support aeroplane. A bomb truck that was one of only two truly vertical dive bombers. It was never designed to mix it with fighters and its slow speed made it near impossible to defend.
The Bf110 twin engine heavy fighter was the best in the world at that time. But it was badly used and its weaknesses in performance (lack of acceleration and agility) made it meat on the table for single seat fighters.
The Bf109 was a fine aircraft in 1940. Heavily armed, fast, astonishing dive and climb performance made it deadly. Fuel injection helped too. It also had a better turning circle than people give it credit for, but only expert pilots would utilise it. Range was short - 20 mins over London providing fuel had be conserved was the max it could stay and that really hindered operations. Landing and taking it off was tricky and of its production of about 35k, a third were lost in landing/take off accidents.
It should not be forgotten that it was one of the early first gen modern fighters of the period. It was a clever design, robust for what it was, easy to service and good enough to be upgraded throughout its life.
[Post edited 15 Sep 2023 12:58]
The BoB was also fought over the UK which was to the RAF's advantage. Less time in the fighting zone for the Luftwaffe who could only bale out or crash on enemy territory or the sea. Whereas there are numerous tales of RAF pilots coming a cropper and getting a lift back to base to fly again the same day or following one. The decision of the Germans to switch from attacking British bases (which was working) to London was also pivotal in them ultimately ceding air superiority. For other examples of fighter pilot heroics, the air battles over Malta take some believing.
[Post edited 15 Sep 2023 14:08]
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 13:40 - Sep 15 by ElephantintheRoom
The Battle of Britain was a PR exercise at a time when Britain had nothing much to crow about. Fighter command was split into five regions of which only 2 and a half saw any action. At no point in the entire conflict was it necessary to change that approach - meaning half of allied airmen had their feet up for the entire ‘battle’ and never at any point was there any danger of running out of fighters or pilots.
Indeed the greatest danger to Britain came a few years earlier when the RAF chose the Bolton Paul Defiant with no forward firing guns over the Hurricane as a front line fighter - a decision of such madness that Harry Hawker refused to accept it and built the Hurricane anyway as a private venture.
Even in the relatively busy south east 85% of allied fighter pilots never shot anything down - pilots spent most of their time getting lost or looking for something to shoot at. Contrast these largely ineffectual skirmishes over a short period with The Battle Of Germany - which shows just how far and fast air warfare developed
First paragraph: of course it wasn’t a PR exercise on anybody’s part. After the fall of France the navy knew (well most of them knew) it couldn’t operate without air cover. The army was small and needed time to build up men and equipment. The records show that it was felt the threat was very real. So was the evidence of nearly a year of war.
The dividing of the country into Groups allowed rotating of squadrons in and out of the two main ones under pressure - 11 Group principally. It allowed training, refitting, new pilots and also sector defence (plotting rooms etc). Its value was demonstrated when the Luftwaffe made its one escorted raid on the north and got hammered.
Airmen did not put their feet up at any stage. In fact a big concern was the lack of training for pilots when they entered the conflict. Flying an aeroplane is not something everyone can do. Perhaps you’ve tried it? It’s a hard skill. Flying in combat? Altogether a different, more deadly game. Fighter Command was borrowing pilots from all over the place. They had no idea how long the Luftwaffe would persist.
Second paragraph: The Defiant was not chosen over the Hurricane. It was designed much later as a bomber destroyer, hence no forward armament. Weight, especially the turret, was its principle undoing. Looked good but wasn’t. It did alright as an interim night fighter but in daylight it was meat on the table. Two squadrons served in the battle but what was left was soon withdrawn.
In the early 30s Hawkers were asked to look at the possibility of a monoplane version of the Fury. The Air Ministry and RAF were wary, being wedded to tried and trusted. Hawkers did persist, helped by growing knowledge of the development of the Bf109. The Hurricane’s potential was clear from its early flights and contracts rolled in soon after. It was a godsend given production issues with the Spitfire.
The Hurricane was the mainstay of Fighter Command in 1940. Easy to build and maintain, pilots loved it. It was vice less, manoeuvrable, good gun platform and could take damage. It had its problems, but served with distinction throughout WW2. A bit of a forgotten hero.
Third paragraph: I doubt the 4000 killed and over 1000 wounded would describe them as ‘largely ineffectual skirmishes’. That just insults them and anyone with knowledge of the events of July-Oct 1940.
The air battles over Europe both night and day of course evolved. Tactics, scale and aircraft but it’s interesting to note that with the exception of the P51 just about all of them were pre war designs.
3
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 15:04 - Sep 15 with 1826 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 10:05 - Sep 15 by blueasfook
The best thing (for the eventual outcome of the war) was Hitler turning on Russia. He certainly bit off more than he could chew there. The war was lost the day he invaded Russia. He just didn't realise it at the time.
eh ?
That was primarily what WW2 was fought about.
The German economy needing oil. And that started way back in WW1 with the Germans trying to get control of the Middle East, hence the alliance with Turkey, and the Berlin-Baghdad railway.
The attacks in the west were merely a means to block any two front war, as in WW1.
Similarly in the Far East it was the US curtailing the growing Japanese economy by blocking theM from raw materials, most noticable oil, that led them to invading the countries that supplied those resources. The US even threatened war with Britain in 1927, over Britain blocking access to rubber.
A very basic analysis has -
"Despite being one of the most powerful industrial nations on earth, Germany had no oil reserves. Furthermore, it lacked an empire - like the British - that would give it access to oil overseas. In fact, in the 1930s oil production was dominated by a handful of countries—the United States, which accounted for 50% of global oil production, as well as the Soviet Union, Venezuela, Iran, Indonesia, and Romania. But in order to fuel its industrial economy and power its growing war machine, Germany would need oil reserves - as German oil production was negligible.
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 14:28 - Sep 15 by Churchman
First paragraph: of course it wasn’t a PR exercise on anybody’s part. After the fall of France the navy knew (well most of them knew) it couldn’t operate without air cover. The army was small and needed time to build up men and equipment. The records show that it was felt the threat was very real. So was the evidence of nearly a year of war.
The dividing of the country into Groups allowed rotating of squadrons in and out of the two main ones under pressure - 11 Group principally. It allowed training, refitting, new pilots and also sector defence (plotting rooms etc). Its value was demonstrated when the Luftwaffe made its one escorted raid on the north and got hammered.
Airmen did not put their feet up at any stage. In fact a big concern was the lack of training for pilots when they entered the conflict. Flying an aeroplane is not something everyone can do. Perhaps you’ve tried it? It’s a hard skill. Flying in combat? Altogether a different, more deadly game. Fighter Command was borrowing pilots from all over the place. They had no idea how long the Luftwaffe would persist.
Second paragraph: The Defiant was not chosen over the Hurricane. It was designed much later as a bomber destroyer, hence no forward armament. Weight, especially the turret, was its principle undoing. Looked good but wasn’t. It did alright as an interim night fighter but in daylight it was meat on the table. Two squadrons served in the battle but what was left was soon withdrawn.
In the early 30s Hawkers were asked to look at the possibility of a monoplane version of the Fury. The Air Ministry and RAF were wary, being wedded to tried and trusted. Hawkers did persist, helped by growing knowledge of the development of the Bf109. The Hurricane’s potential was clear from its early flights and contracts rolled in soon after. It was a godsend given production issues with the Spitfire.
The Hurricane was the mainstay of Fighter Command in 1940. Easy to build and maintain, pilots loved it. It was vice less, manoeuvrable, good gun platform and could take damage. It had its problems, but served with distinction throughout WW2. A bit of a forgotten hero.
Third paragraph: I doubt the 4000 killed and over 1000 wounded would describe them as ‘largely ineffectual skirmishes’. That just insults them and anyone with knowledge of the events of July-Oct 1940.
The air battles over Europe both night and day of course evolved. Tactics, scale and aircraft but it’s interesting to note that with the exception of the P51 just about all of them were pre war designs.
Sorry - but you’re just plain wrong on the Defiant/Hurricane issue. Britain came very close to having the gladiator as its front line fighter at the start of the war.
You misunderstand my use of ‘PR’. The planes in 1940 were generally very primitive and the Luftwaffe’s array of planes wholly unsuitable to the task of gaining air superiority. They had no heavy bombers, their ‘heavy fighters’ and Stukas were useless and the ME 109E lacked the range to fight on an equal footing for more than a few minutes - it was a feeble escort plane. The battle, or series of small skirmishes, was bigged up for the benefit of propaganda purposes …PR. There was never any danger of a German invasion as they didn’t have a functioning navy, a chronic lack of transport aircraft - and crucially no heavy bombers. Even their airborne troops parachuted into battle without weapons, hoping to find them on the ground.
Britain might have been at war for a year but it was largely a phoney war - and the army caved in at the first sight of the enemy, ran home and left all their equipment behind so a success was badly needed - hence never do much etc.
The almost part time nature of ‘the battle’ is shown by the impact of 303 squadron - when they were finally allowed to take part.
The design element is an interesting thought. In 1940 the RAF was still wedded to the Blenheim - even more useless than the German bombers. The USA by contrast, who weren’t at war with anyone were already two years into developing the B-29. On the other hand Chadwick who designed the Lancaster, also penned the Vulcan - and souped up engines from that went into concorde - so some things were moving on.
In 1940 the ‘big wing’ concept floundered because the RAF lacked the wherewithal to muster a few dozen fighters at a few thousand feet - assuming there was any point in the exercise. Within a few short years the Americans were sending many hundreds of planes several miles up on a near daily basis - and stopping them was an entirely different kettle of fish.
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 15:31 - Sep 15 by ElephantintheRoom
Sorry - but you’re just plain wrong on the Defiant/Hurricane issue. Britain came very close to having the gladiator as its front line fighter at the start of the war.
You misunderstand my use of ‘PR’. The planes in 1940 were generally very primitive and the Luftwaffe’s array of planes wholly unsuitable to the task of gaining air superiority. They had no heavy bombers, their ‘heavy fighters’ and Stukas were useless and the ME 109E lacked the range to fight on an equal footing for more than a few minutes - it was a feeble escort plane. The battle, or series of small skirmishes, was bigged up for the benefit of propaganda purposes …PR. There was never any danger of a German invasion as they didn’t have a functioning navy, a chronic lack of transport aircraft - and crucially no heavy bombers. Even their airborne troops parachuted into battle without weapons, hoping to find them on the ground.
Britain might have been at war for a year but it was largely a phoney war - and the army caved in at the first sight of the enemy, ran home and left all their equipment behind so a success was badly needed - hence never do much etc.
The almost part time nature of ‘the battle’ is shown by the impact of 303 squadron - when they were finally allowed to take part.
The design element is an interesting thought. In 1940 the RAF was still wedded to the Blenheim - even more useless than the German bombers. The USA by contrast, who weren’t at war with anyone were already two years into developing the B-29. On the other hand Chadwick who designed the Lancaster, also penned the Vulcan - and souped up engines from that went into concorde - so some things were moving on.
In 1940 the ‘big wing’ concept floundered because the RAF lacked the wherewithal to muster a few dozen fighters at a few thousand feet - assuming there was any point in the exercise. Within a few short years the Americans were sending many hundreds of planes several miles up on a near daily basis - and stopping them was an entirely different kettle of fish.
"Britain might have been at war for a year but it was largely a phoney war - and the army caved in at the first sight of the enemy, ran home and left all their equipment behind so a success was badly needed - hence never do much etc"
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 15:04 - Sep 15 by HARRY10
eh ?
That was primarily what WW2 was fought about.
The German economy needing oil. And that started way back in WW1 with the Germans trying to get control of the Middle East, hence the alliance with Turkey, and the Berlin-Baghdad railway.
The attacks in the west were merely a means to block any two front war, as in WW1.
Similarly in the Far East it was the US curtailing the growing Japanese economy by blocking theM from raw materials, most noticable oil, that led them to invading the countries that supplied those resources. The US even threatened war with Britain in 1927, over Britain blocking access to rubber.
A very basic analysis has -
"Despite being one of the most powerful industrial nations on earth, Germany had no oil reserves. Furthermore, it lacked an empire - like the British - that would give it access to oil overseas. In fact, in the 1930s oil production was dominated by a handful of countries—the United States, which accounted for 50% of global oil production, as well as the Soviet Union, Venezuela, Iran, Indonesia, and Romania. But in order to fuel its industrial economy and power its growing war machine, Germany would need oil reserves - as German oil production was negligible.
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 13:40 - Sep 15 by ElephantintheRoom
The Battle of Britain was a PR exercise at a time when Britain had nothing much to crow about. Fighter command was split into five regions of which only 2 and a half saw any action. At no point in the entire conflict was it necessary to change that approach - meaning half of allied airmen had their feet up for the entire ‘battle’ and never at any point was there any danger of running out of fighters or pilots.
Indeed the greatest danger to Britain came a few years earlier when the RAF chose the Bolton Paul Defiant with no forward firing guns over the Hurricane as a front line fighter - a decision of such madness that Harry Hawker refused to accept it and built the Hurricane anyway as a private venture.
Even in the relatively busy south east 85% of allied fighter pilots never shot anything down - pilots spent most of their time getting lost or looking for something to shoot at. Contrast these largely ineffectual skirmishes over a short period with The Battle Of Germany - which shows just how far and fast air warfare developed
I expect nothing from you, except to die and be a very cheap funeral.
1
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 16:22 - Sep 15 with 1721 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 15:33 - Sep 15 by Keno
"Britain might have been at war for a year but it was largely a phoney war - and the army caved in at the first sight of the enemy, ran home and left all their equipment behind so a success was badly needed - hence never do much etc"
Even for you thats some hit take Ellie!!
Although Elephants points are wrapped up in words designed to get a reaction, the main thrusts of his points are largely correct. It was called the Phoney War for the first 6 months or so because not a lot happened after Germany invaded Poland. And in our first real foray into the war, the BEF did get a spanking in France and did have to retreat home sharpish. There is an argument that if Hitler hadn’t told his troops to halt their advance against the Allied troops trapped on the French coast, a huge chunk of our army could have been wiped out. This could have led shortly after to an invasion of Britain, with Britain left with a much diminished army and hugely under mechanised fighting equipment due to all the kit abandoned in France. Some see these decisions are seen by some as Hitlers most baffling and costly of the war for Germany.
GhostOfEscobar
1
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 16:32 - Sep 15 with 1702 views
Today is Battle of Britain Day on 16:22 - Sep 15 by ghostofescobar
Although Elephants points are wrapped up in words designed to get a reaction, the main thrusts of his points are largely correct. It was called the Phoney War for the first 6 months or so because not a lot happened after Germany invaded Poland. And in our first real foray into the war, the BEF did get a spanking in France and did have to retreat home sharpish. There is an argument that if Hitler hadn’t told his troops to halt their advance against the Allied troops trapped on the French coast, a huge chunk of our army could have been wiped out. This could have led shortly after to an invasion of Britain, with Britain left with a much diminished army and hugely under mechanised fighting equipment due to all the kit abandoned in France. Some see these decisions are seen by some as Hitlers most baffling and costly of the war for Germany.
“This could have led shortly after to an invasion of Britain, with Britain left with a much diminished army”
Albeit the state of the British Army would have been a side note. It was widely believed (and subsequently modelled in war games) that even with German air superiority over the channel, any attempt to move German troops across the sea would have suffered crippling losses at the hands of the Royal Navy with very few making it ashore (edit- and of course the heavy equipment needed for a successful invasion).
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