| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 21:53 - Apr 6 with 1801 views | BloomBlue |
Increase national insurance? |  | |  |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 21:56 - Apr 6 with 1785 views | Bent_double |
Ensure the Tories never get voted into government again? |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:00 - Apr 6 with 1773 views | ElderGrizzly |
Vote out the Tories?
The NHS is a mess right now. I tore my calf muscle last week and ended up at A&E as out of hours for the Minor injuries Unit.
They had 4 doctors and 184 patients in A&E at Addenbrookes for the night shift. Waits of 19 hours for some. |  | | |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:06 - Apr 6 with 1754 views | gazzer1999 |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 21:53 - Apr 6 by BloomBlue |
Increase national insurance? |
1 pence on tax as the libdums wanted to do a few years back. Or better still let’s regenerate Gordon Browns PFI that’ll get it off the balance sheet and saddle our grandchildren with the dept. |  | | |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:09 - Apr 6 with 1731 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:06 - Apr 6 by gazzer1999 |
1 pence on tax as the libdums wanted to do a few years back. Or better still let’s regenerate Gordon Browns PFI that’ll get it off the balance sheet and saddle our grandchildren with the dept. |
Yeah, inflating and pushing the debt down the tracks wasn’t the brightest idea. The NHS was in a MUCH better position at the time, but at a cost. |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 00:08 - Apr 7 with 1622 views | You_Bloo_Right |
Well we could try preventing no-nothing and/or malicious ministers fecking about with things they simply don't understand. See also education. |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 00:16 - Apr 7 with 1614 views | HARRY10 |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:06 - Apr 6 by gazzer1999 |
1 pence on tax as the libdums wanted to do a few years back. Or better still let’s regenerate Gordon Browns PFI that’ll get it off the balance sheet and saddle our grandchildren with the dept. |
That was to built infrastructure, that had been neglected after mad Thatchers time
The question is how to reduce the pressure on medical services at the moment
But well done for finding someone to type your rightie nonsense |  | | |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 08:23 - Apr 7 with 1486 views | footers |
Stop outsourcing tens of billions a year to private firms? Mad idea but it could work. |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 09:16 - Apr 7 with 1455 views | Pinewoodblue |
But Starmer said it was the wrong tax, and the wrong time. Didn’t question the amount to be raised. Wonder how he would raise the extra needed? |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 09:18 - Apr 7 with 1445 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
No takers for a lock down? |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 09:20 - Apr 7 with 1442 views | Keno |
Come on we all know how the Tories will solve the NHS crisis, B'stard gave them the blueprint.
"Scrap the NHS then there will be no more NHS crisis" |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 09:43 - Apr 7 with 1419 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 09:20 - Apr 7 by Keno |
Come on we all know how the Tories will solve the NHS crisis, B'stard gave them the blueprint.
"Scrap the NHS then there will be no more NHS crisis" |
Just goes to show how sh1t the Tories are. They’ve been trying to scrap the NHS for decades and they still haven’t succeeded. [Post edited 7 Apr 2022 9:44]
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:00 - Apr 7 with 1378 views | hype313 |
Rightly so the Tories get a pasting for the complete mismanagement of the NHS under their tenure, but shouldn't we, as a nation have a debate around the NHS?
It's been a political hot potato for years, no matter how much money gets thrown at it, it always needs more, it is shouted from the rooftops in this country by all and sundry saying it is the world best healthcare system, yet no other country on the planet has copied it.
Now, before people pile on and say "you want to sell it off!" I don't, but it's clear as day in its current format it's not fit for purpose, so why don't we have a grown up debate about how we can make it better, how we can sustain it going forward because in its current guise it's failing in every facet. |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:11 - Apr 7 with 1356 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:00 - Apr 7 by hype313 |
Rightly so the Tories get a pasting for the complete mismanagement of the NHS under their tenure, but shouldn't we, as a nation have a debate around the NHS?
It's been a political hot potato for years, no matter how much money gets thrown at it, it always needs more, it is shouted from the rooftops in this country by all and sundry saying it is the world best healthcare system, yet no other country on the planet has copied it.
Now, before people pile on and say "you want to sell it off!" I don't, but it's clear as day in its current format it's not fit for purpose, so why don't we have a grown up debate about how we can make it better, how we can sustain it going forward because in its current guise it's failing in every facet. |
Disagree with last bit. While they may be tied down with bureaucratic and inefficient with the routine stuff when the chips are down they deliver excellent service. | |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:22 - Apr 7 with 1329 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:00 - Apr 7 by hype313 |
Rightly so the Tories get a pasting for the complete mismanagement of the NHS under their tenure, but shouldn't we, as a nation have a debate around the NHS?
It's been a political hot potato for years, no matter how much money gets thrown at it, it always needs more, it is shouted from the rooftops in this country by all and sundry saying it is the world best healthcare system, yet no other country on the planet has copied it.
Now, before people pile on and say "you want to sell it off!" I don't, but it's clear as day in its current format it's not fit for purpose, so why don't we have a grown up debate about how we can make it better, how we can sustain it going forward because in its current guise it's failing in every facet. |
Nice to see a sensible post amongst the usual waffle.
I would wager that people who say it's the best in the world haven't had any form of treatment overseas.
The "Best" thing is that it is free. The rank and file do a great job but I think the NHS mismanages itself beyond belief from procurement to outsourcing, quite frankly it's a shambles.
The NHS has been in decline for decades and no government has tackled the problem. |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:40 - Apr 7 with 1294 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:22 - Apr 7 by Lord_Lucan |
Nice to see a sensible post amongst the usual waffle.
I would wager that people who say it's the best in the world haven't had any form of treatment overseas.
The "Best" thing is that it is free. The rank and file do a great job but I think the NHS mismanages itself beyond belief from procurement to outsourcing, quite frankly it's a shambles.
The NHS has been in decline for decades and no government has tackled the problem. |
Been saying this for ages. It’s a health service. Not a religion. But try to have a grown up debate about how it could be better funded and you are branded a heretic.
None of our ‘progressive’ European neighbours have the same system as the NHS. They aren’t third world countries. And offer good health care.
But try to open a debate and you are given a binary choice between the NHS or the USA health system.
The people who work in it deserve better and the general public deserve better. | |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 14:58 - Apr 7 with 1173 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:22 - Apr 7 by Lord_Lucan |
Nice to see a sensible post amongst the usual waffle.
I would wager that people who say it's the best in the world haven't had any form of treatment overseas.
The "Best" thing is that it is free. The rank and file do a great job but I think the NHS mismanages itself beyond belief from procurement to outsourcing, quite frankly it's a shambles.
The NHS has been in decline for decades and no government has tackled the problem. |
Yes a long term plan needs to be discussed and agreed. That needs to encompass the wider social care and even wider social issues that have a direct impact on NHS service provision. And yes these include actions governments can take to actually lift people out of (relative if you wish) poverty (as this has a direct impact on the likelihood of one needing to use the health service) and actions governments can take to further reduce the likelihood of people needing expensive health care later in life (be that even higher taxes on tobacco, alcohol, sugar, salt, etc or anything else).
What has hampered such discussions, as much as if not more than the "hands off our NHS" stance, is the short-termism in-built into our politics (we need a vision for the future of the NHS including how it is funded that goes beyond the life of any one pariliament) as well as the unnecessary attempts to introduce the market place into the service, be that changes to procurement policy, PFI or whatever. What is Javid's "brief"? What has been the "brief" of ANY health secretary? Why do they all feel as if, from a position of knowing nothing, they have to "make their mark" on the service? Targets for wait times are well and good but if the service is sinking then why are we making more deckchairs?
No government has tackled the problem because there is no direct electoral gain to be made by looking further than a couple of years. | |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 15:05 - Apr 7 with 1161 views | chicoazul |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:22 - Apr 7 by Lord_Lucan |
Nice to see a sensible post amongst the usual waffle.
I would wager that people who say it's the best in the world haven't had any form of treatment overseas.
The "Best" thing is that it is free. The rank and file do a great job but I think the NHS mismanages itself beyond belief from procurement to outsourcing, quite frankly it's a shambles.
The NHS has been in decline for decades and no government has tackled the problem. |
It’s not free. And yes nhs procurement is an absolute shambles. |  |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:16 - Apr 7 with 1045 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 14:58 - Apr 7 by You_Bloo_Right |
Yes a long term plan needs to be discussed and agreed. That needs to encompass the wider social care and even wider social issues that have a direct impact on NHS service provision. And yes these include actions governments can take to actually lift people out of (relative if you wish) poverty (as this has a direct impact on the likelihood of one needing to use the health service) and actions governments can take to further reduce the likelihood of people needing expensive health care later in life (be that even higher taxes on tobacco, alcohol, sugar, salt, etc or anything else).
What has hampered such discussions, as much as if not more than the "hands off our NHS" stance, is the short-termism in-built into our politics (we need a vision for the future of the NHS including how it is funded that goes beyond the life of any one pariliament) as well as the unnecessary attempts to introduce the market place into the service, be that changes to procurement policy, PFI or whatever. What is Javid's "brief"? What has been the "brief" of ANY health secretary? Why do they all feel as if, from a position of knowing nothing, they have to "make their mark" on the service? Targets for wait times are well and good but if the service is sinking then why are we making more deckchairs?
No government has tackled the problem because there is no direct electoral gain to be made by looking further than a couple of years. |
Short termism is a thing.
I genuinely think successive governments don't want to introduce a long term plan in case it comes to fruition and success under a future opposition government.
I'm also coming to the conclusion after many years that Civil Servants have a way of blocking and stalling everything. | |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:18 - Apr 7 with 1035 views | Swansea_Blue |
DIY surgery. | |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:23 - Apr 7 with 1017 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 22:18 - Apr 7 by Swansea_Blue |
DIY surgery. |
I might have to resort to this with my teeth as my dentist has kicked me off their books! | |
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| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 00:21 - Apr 8 with 978 views | HARRY10 |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 10:22 - Apr 7 by Lord_Lucan |
Nice to see a sensible post amongst the usual waffle.
I would wager that people who say it's the best in the world haven't had any form of treatment overseas.
The "Best" thing is that it is free. The rank and file do a great job but I think the NHS mismanages itself beyond belief from procurement to outsourcing, quite frankly it's a shambles.
The NHS has been in decline for decades and no government has tackled the problem. |
"I would wager that people who say it's the best in the world haven't had any form of treatment overseas"
You haven't really thought this through, have you ?
The London tube is very effective and efficient. However, if you take a taxi it is quicker..... er yes.
That the NHS is under funded is not it's fault. It is currently short of tens of thousands of nurses and doctors down to dogma. Removing the nurses bursaries and cutting pay over the last 10 years has not helped. Putting red tape in front of overseas medical staff since Jan 2021 is another cause.
However, just as regular as drunks in A&E you will get righties wailing about the NHS, with never any factual evidence.
"The UK performs well on several efficiency measures. For example, the NHS has made significant savings on its pharmaceutical spend and is a leader in Europe on the proportion of drugs that are prescribed in their (cheaper) generic form instead of the (more expensive) branded version" The Kings Fund
Curious to see that the US system is no longer held up as the way to go. Whoever paid Farage to spout off about an insurance based health care did not get value for money - unlike us | | | |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 03:32 - Apr 8 with 957 views | IPS_wich |
OK - here goes - and I've got my hard hat as this won't please everyone. The views below are based upon 17 years as a health planner/advisor - for 9 years in England with various NHS bodies and trusts; 8 years in Australia. And yes, all of that work is as an external consultant working for private sector firms that (shock) charged for our services.
I have several points:
1) Your premise is flawed - no policy should ever be about 'protecting the NHS', it should be about fiercely protecting the right for everyone across the UK to have timely access to high quality healthcare, free at the point of use to the user. Anything that starts with the premise of protecting a multi billion pound bloated bureaucratic mess that is the NHS is to completely miss what is so special and unique about the NHS. No other country in the world manages to so effectively balance high quality care with services that are free at the point of use. To characterise this as public vs private sector is protectionist and certainly robs the health system of expertise and technology that would improve outcomes. Private sector involvement should be encouraged where it is better placed than the public sector and where it complements the public sector. That said, ANY involvement of the private sector has to go through the most stringent of competitive and fair procurement processes - any cronyism or contracts for mates/family members should see those involved behind bars. The narrative of 'the tories are selling the NHS to the private sector' is just a scare tactic - they've been in power for 12 years and guess what - the NHS is still the largest public sector health employer in the world. The question should be 'how can we equip the NHS to effectively partner with the private sector' - because there are so many wasted/missed opportunities.
2) The NHS needs greater funding. In 2017, the NHS cost approximately 7.5% of the UK's GDP. Health systems in countries like Germany, France, Switzerland, Australia cost between 9-10% (ignore the US - it costs around 16% and doesn't deliver equitable care). This can only be achieved by either reallocating expenditure from other public services into the NHS - or a 2-3% rise in NI payments - neither of those are vote winners...
3) About 80-100 district general hospitals need to be downgraded to community hospitals, with the majority of acute services consolidated into a smaller number of 'specialist' hospitals. Back in the late 60s, the government embarked upon a program of building 'general' hospitals in every town with a population of more than 50,000. Now, 50 years later, we are seeing fewer and fewer doctors, nurses and other health professionals coming out of training and education wanting to be generalists. Without the generalists, these small hospitals can no longer sustain safe services 24/7. Consolidating specialist services (delivered by specialist clinicians, using specialist equipment and drugs) will save lives and support people to have better recoveries from life changing illnesses and injuries (think Patrice Muamba and his cardiac arrest - the ambulance drove past 3-4 general hospitals to go straight to the specialist cardiac unit - took longer but saved his life). These smaller community hospitals should primarily focus on child health, simple elective surgeries, geriatric care and rehabilitation - and should be complemented by: (a) greater use of virtual care, so people don't have to travel to the specialist hospital for follow up appointments - they go to the local community hospital to speak with the specialist via videolink; (b) more services out of hospital and in the community. But that involves having an honest dialogue with the country about the need to downgrade almost half of the hospitals and that this will mean for many they will have to travel to access the services they need and to visit their loved ones in a hospital 50 miles away - again, not a vote winner so will never happen which means there will be more and more of these scandals in sub-scale hospitals (Mid Staffs, Shrewsbury. Telford etc.).
4) Give a greater remit to nurse practitioners and pharmacists to prescribe for routine medicines - therefore reducing the burden on GPs (another group whose numbers are reducing) so that they can focus more on diagnosis and chronic disease management - keeping people out of hospital. But 'doctors' claim this is unsafe (which is BS).
5) Charge anyone 100 pounds who presents to an A&E when they could have seen a GP. They shouldn't be there and they are clogging up the system.
6) Create a separate mental health system from the ground up. Shoehorning it into a hospital based health system is not only inefficient/expensive, but it compromises outcomes for mental health patients and for physical health patients. Only people with the highest risk of suicide should be in a hospital - in many cases being in hospital exacerbates the individual's mental health. We are clogging up hospitals with mental health patients because there are no appropriate services to support them either at home or in non-clinical residential mental health facilities (purpose built to focus on managing their mental health within a community/home setting). Some of the states in Australia have established community mental health residential services that are dramatically improving patient outcomes and reducing the burden on hospitals.
7) Stop the merry go round of failed NHS executives and make it easier to sack NHS staff who can't do their job (as opposed to hiding them in roles where 'they can do least damage').
8) Increase pay for nurses, allied health workers, social workers - not 1-2% but 15-20%.
9) Industrialise the capability to drive innovation and roll it out across the whole health system. There's no coincidence that Frimley Park Hospital in Hampshire is one of the highest performing hospitals in England - most of the doctors there are army doctors based nearby at Aldershot who split their time being deployed across the world and then working at Frimley Park. Some of the ideas that have been brought back from how they set up hospitals in Afghanistan and Iraq have been translated into services back at Frimley Park - but there is no mechanism to then quickly disseminate these great ideas across the NHS. Liam Donaldson said back in 2011 that a study he had commissioned showed it takes an average of 12 years for a new idea that works in one hospital to be rolled out as good practice across all NHS hospitals.
10) I believe this has started to happen - but bring health and social care together. Not just from a governance and funding perspective, but on the ground as well. Especially for support provided to older people in the home (where most older people want to be) - so they can get clinical care alongside social care when needed.
11) Stop charging people to park at hospitals - it's wrong on so many levels.
12) Increase the amount of money being spent on health prevention, early intervention and health education of school aged children AND parents. The majority of life long health and mental health issues and behaviours are baked in by the age of 16. This will have the single biggest return on investment of any intervention - but because that return is realised over a 25+ year period it doesn't appeal to governments because they want to see the return within 1-2 election cycles.
There are many many other things at a local level - these are the main systemic changes though. | | | |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 08:06 - Apr 8 with 890 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Any ideas on how to protect our NHS? on 03:32 - Apr 8 by IPS_wich |
OK - here goes - and I've got my hard hat as this won't please everyone. The views below are based upon 17 years as a health planner/advisor - for 9 years in England with various NHS bodies and trusts; 8 years in Australia. And yes, all of that work is as an external consultant working for private sector firms that (shock) charged for our services.
I have several points:
1) Your premise is flawed - no policy should ever be about 'protecting the NHS', it should be about fiercely protecting the right for everyone across the UK to have timely access to high quality healthcare, free at the point of use to the user. Anything that starts with the premise of protecting a multi billion pound bloated bureaucratic mess that is the NHS is to completely miss what is so special and unique about the NHS. No other country in the world manages to so effectively balance high quality care with services that are free at the point of use. To characterise this as public vs private sector is protectionist and certainly robs the health system of expertise and technology that would improve outcomes. Private sector involvement should be encouraged where it is better placed than the public sector and where it complements the public sector. That said, ANY involvement of the private sector has to go through the most stringent of competitive and fair procurement processes - any cronyism or contracts for mates/family members should see those involved behind bars. The narrative of 'the tories are selling the NHS to the private sector' is just a scare tactic - they've been in power for 12 years and guess what - the NHS is still the largest public sector health employer in the world. The question should be 'how can we equip the NHS to effectively partner with the private sector' - because there are so many wasted/missed opportunities.
2) The NHS needs greater funding. In 2017, the NHS cost approximately 7.5% of the UK's GDP. Health systems in countries like Germany, France, Switzerland, Australia cost between 9-10% (ignore the US - it costs around 16% and doesn't deliver equitable care). This can only be achieved by either reallocating expenditure from other public services into the NHS - or a 2-3% rise in NI payments - neither of those are vote winners...
3) About 80-100 district general hospitals need to be downgraded to community hospitals, with the majority of acute services consolidated into a smaller number of 'specialist' hospitals. Back in the late 60s, the government embarked upon a program of building 'general' hospitals in every town with a population of more than 50,000. Now, 50 years later, we are seeing fewer and fewer doctors, nurses and other health professionals coming out of training and education wanting to be generalists. Without the generalists, these small hospitals can no longer sustain safe services 24/7. Consolidating specialist services (delivered by specialist clinicians, using specialist equipment and drugs) will save lives and support people to have better recoveries from life changing illnesses and injuries (think Patrice Muamba and his cardiac arrest - the ambulance drove past 3-4 general hospitals to go straight to the specialist cardiac unit - took longer but saved his life). These smaller community hospitals should primarily focus on child health, simple elective surgeries, geriatric care and rehabilitation - and should be complemented by: (a) greater use of virtual care, so people don't have to travel to the specialist hospital for follow up appointments - they go to the local community hospital to speak with the specialist via videolink; (b) more services out of hospital and in the community. But that involves having an honest dialogue with the country about the need to downgrade almost half of the hospitals and that this will mean for many they will have to travel to access the services they need and to visit their loved ones in a hospital 50 miles away - again, not a vote winner so will never happen which means there will be more and more of these scandals in sub-scale hospitals (Mid Staffs, Shrewsbury. Telford etc.).
4) Give a greater remit to nurse practitioners and pharmacists to prescribe for routine medicines - therefore reducing the burden on GPs (another group whose numbers are reducing) so that they can focus more on diagnosis and chronic disease management - keeping people out of hospital. But 'doctors' claim this is unsafe (which is BS).
5) Charge anyone 100 pounds who presents to an A&E when they could have seen a GP. They shouldn't be there and they are clogging up the system.
6) Create a separate mental health system from the ground up. Shoehorning it into a hospital based health system is not only inefficient/expensive, but it compromises outcomes for mental health patients and for physical health patients. Only people with the highest risk of suicide should be in a hospital - in many cases being in hospital exacerbates the individual's mental health. We are clogging up hospitals with mental health patients because there are no appropriate services to support them either at home or in non-clinical residential mental health facilities (purpose built to focus on managing their mental health within a community/home setting). Some of the states in Australia have established community mental health residential services that are dramatically improving patient outcomes and reducing the burden on hospitals.
7) Stop the merry go round of failed NHS executives and make it easier to sack NHS staff who can't do their job (as opposed to hiding them in roles where 'they can do least damage').
8) Increase pay for nurses, allied health workers, social workers - not 1-2% but 15-20%.
9) Industrialise the capability to drive innovation and roll it out across the whole health system. There's no coincidence that Frimley Park Hospital in Hampshire is one of the highest performing hospitals in England - most of the doctors there are army doctors based nearby at Aldershot who split their time being deployed across the world and then working at Frimley Park. Some of the ideas that have been brought back from how they set up hospitals in Afghanistan and Iraq have been translated into services back at Frimley Park - but there is no mechanism to then quickly disseminate these great ideas across the NHS. Liam Donaldson said back in 2011 that a study he had commissioned showed it takes an average of 12 years for a new idea that works in one hospital to be rolled out as good practice across all NHS hospitals.
10) I believe this has started to happen - but bring health and social care together. Not just from a governance and funding perspective, but on the ground as well. Especially for support provided to older people in the home (where most older people want to be) - so they can get clinical care alongside social care when needed.
11) Stop charging people to park at hospitals - it's wrong on so many levels.
12) Increase the amount of money being spent on health prevention, early intervention and health education of school aged children AND parents. The majority of life long health and mental health issues and behaviours are baked in by the age of 16. This will have the single biggest return on investment of any intervention - but because that return is realised over a 25+ year period it doesn't appeal to governments because they want to see the return within 1-2 election cycles.
There are many many other things at a local level - these are the main systemic changes though. |
A very informative post. I was really only thinking in terms of the current high rates of covid admissions [remember, Stay home, protect the NHS, Save lives] but these threads always take a course of their own.
I have no doubt that the NHS is a bloated, bureaucratic mess with more layers of management than you can shake a stick at. | |
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