| The elephant in the room is 08:09 - Mar 19 with 2513 views | Oxford_Blue |
How long the majority of the population will accept brutal measures that decimate their jobs, freedom and futures to protect the elderly and unwell. It’s a grim and morally repulsive situation but sooner or later aren’t people going to say it’s better 300,000 elderly and unwell die than the entire country’s economy is destroyed? It will be a political choice ultimately but i predict many will let self interest govern their behaviour after a few months of this.
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| The elephant in the room is on 10:12 - Mar 19 with 554 views | WeWereZombies |
| The elephant in the room is on 09:21 - Mar 19 by monytowbray |
I'm also struggling with the idea of a police state but i accept right now it must happen. |
There is no need for a police state, the very idea goes against the concept of who the police serve. King_of_Portman_Road is better qualified to comment on this but consider Peel's Princiles:
PRINCIPLE 1 “The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.”
PRINCIPLE 2 “The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.”
PRINCIPLE 3 “Police must secure the willing cooperation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.”
PRINCIPLE 4 “The degree of cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.”
PRINCIPLE 5 “Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to the public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.”
PRINCIPLE 6 “Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.”
PRINCIPLE 7 “Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”
PRINCIPLE 8 “Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.”
PRINCIPLE 9 “The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.” |  |
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| The elephant in the room is on 10:14 - Mar 19 with 550 views | Guthrum |
| The elephant in the room is on 09:42 - Mar 19 by BrixtonBlue |
You're kidding?! I was joking, I never actually heard him use it! |
I did, but only once or twice. |  |
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| The elephant in the room is on 10:25 - Mar 19 with 540 views | BloomBlue |
| The elephant in the room is on 09:06 - Mar 19 by Guthrum |
You know and I know that people died because of Austerity and the harsh welfare state environment*. But it has not been that well publicised and the links were insufficiently direct that it could not be challenged by those so inclined.
In this case, the death rates are obvious, clearly linked to policy and liable to be on a much larger scale. Rather than people hearing a few reports of suicides, most people would actually know someone who had died - often an elderly relative.
* I know personally one of the journalists who first pursued it. |
Where is the policy link? Sorry are you telling me if Labour had been in power for the last 10 years the NHS would have 500,000 ICU beds sitting there waiting for a pandemic?
I know people are trying to political point score, but sorry if you believe that you're living in a dream world.
Remember in Italy it's the lack of ICU's which is the big problem but from what I can see the public there aren't trying to use it politically and accept no party in power would have implemented the volume of ICU's this requires just to sit there unused for 40-50 years
I'm not part of the NHS the big question is in a normal year do we have enough ICU beds? The one person (from the NHS) on the radio 2 days ago said we do have enough ICU's for a normal year, but I'm open to input on those who work in the NHS/ICUs |  | | |
| The elephant in the room is on 10:30 - Mar 19 with 532 views | BrixtonBlue |
| The elephant in the room is on 10:25 - Mar 19 by BloomBlue |
Where is the policy link? Sorry are you telling me if Labour had been in power for the last 10 years the NHS would have 500,000 ICU beds sitting there waiting for a pandemic?
I know people are trying to political point score, but sorry if you believe that you're living in a dream world.
Remember in Italy it's the lack of ICU's which is the big problem but from what I can see the public there aren't trying to use it politically and accept no party in power would have implemented the volume of ICU's this requires just to sit there unused for 40-50 years
I'm not part of the NHS the big question is in a normal year do we have enough ICU beds? The one person (from the NHS) on the radio 2 days ago said we do have enough ICU's for a normal year, but I'm open to input on those who work in the NHS/ICUs |
"Sorry are you telling me if Labour had been in power for the last 10 years the NHS would have 500,000 ICU beds sitting there waiting for a pandemic?"
No. And no-one's intimated that. Straw man. |  |
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| The elephant in the room is on 10:42 - Mar 19 with 519 views | Guthrum |
| The elephant in the room is on 10:25 - Mar 19 by BloomBlue |
Where is the policy link? Sorry are you telling me if Labour had been in power for the last 10 years the NHS would have 500,000 ICU beds sitting there waiting for a pandemic?
I know people are trying to political point score, but sorry if you believe that you're living in a dream world.
Remember in Italy it's the lack of ICU's which is the big problem but from what I can see the public there aren't trying to use it politically and accept no party in power would have implemented the volume of ICU's this requires just to sit there unused for 40-50 years
I'm not part of the NHS the big question is in a normal year do we have enough ICU beds? The one person (from the NHS) on the radio 2 days ago said we do have enough ICU's for a normal year, but I'm open to input on those who work in the NHS/ICUs |
No. I'm saying if the government implemented a blatantly economy-favouring policy which resulted in a much larger number of deaths from Covid-19 than other comparable nations, then they would be (rightly) clobbered.
I don't believe our government has been doing anything of the sort, more trying to carry out a delicate balancing act in an environment of conflicting expert advice, uncertain information, rapid change and pressure from all sides.
Agreed, there's no way we could have had the ICU capacity needed for an epidemic like this just sitting there waiting, even if the NHS was funded to its heart's content. | |
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| The elephant in the room is on 11:30 - Mar 19 with 494 views | gordon |
| The elephant in the room is on 08:51 - Mar 19 by Oxford_Blue |
How do you actually enforce measures in a country of 68 million that isn’t a police state and doesn’t have the mechanisms to enforce martial law? Pray tell. |
You don't think we have the means to close restaurants, pubs, bars, cafes, and reduce public transport down to a bare minimum? |  | | |
| The elephant in the room is on 11:40 - Mar 19 with 478 views | monytowbray |
| The elephant in the room is on 10:12 - Mar 19 by WeWereZombies |
There is no need for a police state, the very idea goes against the concept of who the police serve. King_of_Portman_Road is better qualified to comment on this but consider Peel's Princiles:
PRINCIPLE 1 “The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.”
PRINCIPLE 2 “The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.”
PRINCIPLE 3 “Police must secure the willing cooperation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.”
PRINCIPLE 4 “The degree of cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.”
PRINCIPLE 5 “Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to the public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.”
PRINCIPLE 6 “Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.”
PRINCIPLE 7 “Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”
PRINCIPLE 8 “Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.”
PRINCIPLE 9 “The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.” |
Good info there. Yeah, would value K_O_P_R’s input on this. |  |
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| The elephant in the room is on 13:07 - Mar 19 with 451 views | longtimefan |
| The elephant in the room is on 11:30 - Mar 19 by gordon |
You don't think we have the means to close restaurants, pubs, bars, cafes, and reduce public transport down to a bare minimum? |
I thought they were in the process of bringing legislation to Parliament for those and more dracionan measures this week! Labour's Baroness Chakrabarti, was on radio 4 this morning saying she was being looped in by the Government about this. | | | |
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