| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum 09:52 - Feb 20 with 5373 views | ElderGrizzly |
Looks like they have finally realised what most already knew, that Momentum are toxic and are at the heart of the downfall of the Labour party |  | | |  |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 19:03 - Feb 20 with 1636 views | manchego |
The laughter from Tory Central is deafening.
We all remember games when the opposition has given up.
It's looking like Labour. |  | | |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 19:08 - Feb 20 with 1624 views | hampstead_blue |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 18:38 - Feb 20 by lowhouseblue |
corbyn in the shadow cabinet. oh come on, that's genuinely funny. they're playing it for laughs now. rlb for leader, burgon as deputy and home sec, corbyn as foreign secretary, and abbott as chancellor. if people don't vote for it, surely they could spin it off as a sit com? |
Not even Spike Milligan would perform that skit!
Beyond belief. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 22:08 - Feb 20 with 1590 views | jimmyvet |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 12:37 - Feb 20 by Darth_Koont |
Doesn't necessarily mean that at all. It's whoever is going to get more sympathetic coverage.
For example, Johnson is a carwreck of a politician compared to Corbyn. The only difference is that he's been airbrushed while Corbyn has been held up to the most unflattering portrayals possible.
Same goes for the forces behind the two and their teams, cabinets, MPs and their party members. |
You really are mad like some crazy narcissistic dictator you are completely detached from reality DK seriously, I say this out of concern I am worried about you and your constant mad rantings. Please talk to somebody and I mean that with sincerity I really do. |  | | |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 00:29 - Feb 21 with 1565 views | Darth_Koont |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 22:08 - Feb 20 by jimmyvet |
You really are mad like some crazy narcissistic dictator you are completely detached from reality DK seriously, I say this out of concern I am worried about you and your constant mad rantings. Please talk to somebody and I mean that with sincerity I really do. |
Never change, Jimmy. |  |
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 03:48 - Feb 21 with 1525 views | jeera |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 22:08 - Feb 20 by jimmyvet |
You really are mad like some crazy narcissistic dictator you are completely detached from reality DK seriously, I say this out of concern I am worried about you and your constant mad rantings. Please talk to somebody and I mean that with sincerity I really do. |
Which part of that particular post do you disagree with so strongly to come up with that Jimmy? |  |
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 08:00 - Feb 21 with 1500 views | Churchman |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 18:37 - Feb 20 by Darth_Koont |
I just don't see the problem with Corbyn in the shadow cabinet in principle. Only the pathetic "optics" that will be applied.
It's a strange world indeed where Corbyn is a racist villain and BoJo is UK Prime Minister sitting on a big majority. Surely at some stage people will stop and wonder how all this came to pass? |
It is a strange world. The fact of the matter is that the Conservatives should have been thrown out of power by a landslide after their ‘efforts’ of the last decade. Instead, Labour had its worst result for 85 years.
I can’t believe this was all down to the press and their idiotic stance on Brexit, which was the official party line. Other factors in my view, were Corbyn, a promise a day manifesto, Momentum influence and anti-semitism. I know that Corbyn isn’t a racist by the way, but he appears tolerant or ignorant of people that are and after appearing fresh and new in 2017 (and still lost), he came across to me as sincere, but dull, dour, inflexible, petty (e,g. avoiding the Festival of Remembrance again) sometimes clueless and dismissive of all whose views differed from his views of the world.
The baleful influence of Momentum pulling the strings was a switch off for many people, especially old gits like me that remember the chaos of Militant and Kinnock’s amazing efforts to rid the party of it in the 80s (Blair owes a debt of thanks to him). Telling voters that voted for New Labour that they were all Tory-lite and for non-believers to do one may be a perception, but I think it may have pushed people away.
Anti-semitism and the perception of it was a big problem as discussed in other threads and the manifesto just wasn’t credible. Coming out with ‘it’s all costed’ was scarcely believable and when somebody threw in billions for Waspi women, it became unbelievable.
In my view, the tories were an open goal. I thought in 2010 they were not fit to govern and the amply proved that with their staggering incompetence, divisiveness and vindictive ideologies. It’s a shame then that Labour were unelectable.
Any new leader should not have Corbyn or his cronies anywhere near the shadow cabinet. They will need to forge their own identity and won’t be able to do that with him hanging around and I do believe they have to move to a more centrist position. [Post edited 21 Feb 2020 8:02]
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 10:52 - Feb 21 with 1460 views | Darth_Koont |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 08:00 - Feb 21 by Churchman |
It is a strange world. The fact of the matter is that the Conservatives should have been thrown out of power by a landslide after their ‘efforts’ of the last decade. Instead, Labour had its worst result for 85 years.
I can’t believe this was all down to the press and their idiotic stance on Brexit, which was the official party line. Other factors in my view, were Corbyn, a promise a day manifesto, Momentum influence and anti-semitism. I know that Corbyn isn’t a racist by the way, but he appears tolerant or ignorant of people that are and after appearing fresh and new in 2017 (and still lost), he came across to me as sincere, but dull, dour, inflexible, petty (e,g. avoiding the Festival of Remembrance again) sometimes clueless and dismissive of all whose views differed from his views of the world.
The baleful influence of Momentum pulling the strings was a switch off for many people, especially old gits like me that remember the chaos of Militant and Kinnock’s amazing efforts to rid the party of it in the 80s (Blair owes a debt of thanks to him). Telling voters that voted for New Labour that they were all Tory-lite and for non-believers to do one may be a perception, but I think it may have pushed people away.
Anti-semitism and the perception of it was a big problem as discussed in other threads and the manifesto just wasn’t credible. Coming out with ‘it’s all costed’ was scarcely believable and when somebody threw in billions for Waspi women, it became unbelievable.
In my view, the tories were an open goal. I thought in 2010 they were not fit to govern and the amply proved that with their staggering incompetence, divisiveness and vindictive ideologies. It’s a shame then that Labour were unelectable.
Any new leader should not have Corbyn or his cronies anywhere near the shadow cabinet. They will need to forge their own identity and won’t be able to do that with him hanging around and I do believe they have to move to a more centrist position. [Post edited 21 Feb 2020 8:02]
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But there is all that in spades on the other side. And most critically with their record of 10 years in government, the failed and nasty austerity programme and their handling of Brexit.
Yes. Labour could have been a lot better and certainly more unified which exacerbated issues and invited criticism. But how that became an uphill fight where Labour and Corbyn were having to defend themselves on every point is the crux of the matter. The Conservatives got a free ride in comparison.
People can say those are the rules of the game but that's a game Labour can't win in any meaningful sense. Sure, they can get elected as a quasi-LibDem party but not actually fight for what it believes which is a legitimate social democratic and progressive reform party. That's a view that has been excluded by the debate at the same time as nutty disaster capitalist and xenophobic populism has been welcomed with open arms.
I'm not just saying that because Labour lost either. I've been banging on about the state of our politics and media for years on here. And I hope that Labour work on getting the message through via social media and campaigning over the next few years rather than just waving the white flag and courting the right-wing media instead. | |
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 11:15 - Feb 21 with 1448 views | Churchman |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 10:52 - Feb 21 by Darth_Koont |
But there is all that in spades on the other side. And most critically with their record of 10 years in government, the failed and nasty austerity programme and their handling of Brexit.
Yes. Labour could have been a lot better and certainly more unified which exacerbated issues and invited criticism. But how that became an uphill fight where Labour and Corbyn were having to defend themselves on every point is the crux of the matter. The Conservatives got a free ride in comparison.
People can say those are the rules of the game but that's a game Labour can't win in any meaningful sense. Sure, they can get elected as a quasi-LibDem party but not actually fight for what it believes which is a legitimate social democratic and progressive reform party. That's a view that has been excluded by the debate at the same time as nutty disaster capitalist and xenophobic populism has been welcomed with open arms.
I'm not just saying that because Labour lost either. I've been banging on about the state of our politics and media for years on here. And I hope that Labour work on getting the message through via social media and campaigning over the next few years rather than just waving the white flag and courting the right-wing media instead. |
I agree with you re the tories - as I hope was shown in my over long message, but that’s the point. Labour came across to me as just as nasty, if not worse. As somebody neutral in this, I think the media were woefully biased towards each party depending on their perspective. Let alone social media which was a dreadful diet of misinformation and lies. It’s all pretty evil and clouds good debate and argument, in my view - which you and I manage to do, despite holding differing views on some things. | | | |
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 12:25 - Feb 21 with 1427 views | Darth_Koont |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 11:15 - Feb 21 by Churchman |
I agree with you re the tories - as I hope was shown in my over long message, but that’s the point. Labour came across to me as just as nasty, if not worse. As somebody neutral in this, I think the media were woefully biased towards each party depending on their perspective. Let alone social media which was a dreadful diet of misinformation and lies. It’s all pretty evil and clouds good debate and argument, in my view - which you and I manage to do, despite holding differing views on some things. |
Well, the overwhelming bias in the media is towards right-wing partisan papers. And then there's the neutral BBC who enable that bias through their reporting of accusations and constant attempts to suggest equivalence (which they incidentally apply to everything from science and medicine to economics and not just politics). The Guardian also aligned itself early doors with the right-wing of Labour (there's a cosiness and collaboration between the media and party politicians that needs more scrutiny) that turned into a grudging, niggly support for Corbyn but without really backing him.
So even if there was a real equivalence and Labour was just as nasty in real terms (which I doubt but that's another discussion), the volume and reach of the anti-Labour criticism far outweighs the criticism coming the other way. It's only on social media and other internet resources that this is evened up but that tends to be academic given how these produce echo chambers rather than actual public debate.
But I think we basically agree. The media isn't there as another campaign channel for party politics but rather to hold power (and those who seek it) to account. Of course, some will be partisan but our current problem is that the whole system seems to be about picking sides and you have to look for journalists outside who are willing to fight for the truth.
I think Oborne has been excellent at pointing out this problem with client journalism and also trying to adopt an objective and responsible stance as a journalist. But people like him are the exception to the rule nowadays and we give the key "truth seeking" roles to someone as blatantly compromised as Andrew Neil! And no-one blinks. | |
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 12:44 - Feb 21 with 1418 views | Ryorry |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 08:00 - Feb 21 by Churchman |
It is a strange world. The fact of the matter is that the Conservatives should have been thrown out of power by a landslide after their ‘efforts’ of the last decade. Instead, Labour had its worst result for 85 years.
I can’t believe this was all down to the press and their idiotic stance on Brexit, which was the official party line. Other factors in my view, were Corbyn, a promise a day manifesto, Momentum influence and anti-semitism. I know that Corbyn isn’t a racist by the way, but he appears tolerant or ignorant of people that are and after appearing fresh and new in 2017 (and still lost), he came across to me as sincere, but dull, dour, inflexible, petty (e,g. avoiding the Festival of Remembrance again) sometimes clueless and dismissive of all whose views differed from his views of the world.
The baleful influence of Momentum pulling the strings was a switch off for many people, especially old gits like me that remember the chaos of Militant and Kinnock’s amazing efforts to rid the party of it in the 80s (Blair owes a debt of thanks to him). Telling voters that voted for New Labour that they were all Tory-lite and for non-believers to do one may be a perception, but I think it may have pushed people away.
Anti-semitism and the perception of it was a big problem as discussed in other threads and the manifesto just wasn’t credible. Coming out with ‘it’s all costed’ was scarcely believable and when somebody threw in billions for Waspi women, it became unbelievable.
In my view, the tories were an open goal. I thought in 2010 they were not fit to govern and the amply proved that with their staggering incompetence, divisiveness and vindictive ideologies. It’s a shame then that Labour were unelectable.
Any new leader should not have Corbyn or his cronies anywhere near the shadow cabinet. They will need to forge their own identity and won’t be able to do that with him hanging around and I do believe they have to move to a more centrist position. [Post edited 21 Feb 2020 8:02]
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 13:28 - Feb 21 with 1398 views | r2d2 |
Labour are shot. Need a massive overhaul. We might have decent opposition if they ever sorted themselves out. |  | | |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 14:29 - Feb 21 with 1370 views | tractordownsouth |
FFS, they don't help themselves do they? |  |
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 15:06 - Feb 21 with 1355 views | Churchman |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 12:25 - Feb 21 by Darth_Koont |
Well, the overwhelming bias in the media is towards right-wing partisan papers. And then there's the neutral BBC who enable that bias through their reporting of accusations and constant attempts to suggest equivalence (which they incidentally apply to everything from science and medicine to economics and not just politics). The Guardian also aligned itself early doors with the right-wing of Labour (there's a cosiness and collaboration between the media and party politicians that needs more scrutiny) that turned into a grudging, niggly support for Corbyn but without really backing him.
So even if there was a real equivalence and Labour was just as nasty in real terms (which I doubt but that's another discussion), the volume and reach of the anti-Labour criticism far outweighs the criticism coming the other way. It's only on social media and other internet resources that this is evened up but that tends to be academic given how these produce echo chambers rather than actual public debate.
But I think we basically agree. The media isn't there as another campaign channel for party politics but rather to hold power (and those who seek it) to account. Of course, some will be partisan but our current problem is that the whole system seems to be about picking sides and you have to look for journalists outside who are willing to fight for the truth.
I think Oborne has been excellent at pointing out this problem with client journalism and also trying to adopt an objective and responsible stance as a journalist. But people like him are the exception to the rule nowadays and we give the key "truth seeking" roles to someone as blatantly compromised as Andrew Neil! And no-one blinks. |
But was it overwhelming or does it depend on your viewpoint? I felt the Guardian was for Labour, but against Corbyn - sort of. The Indy much the same. The Telegraph, very tory, Times tory but critical. The Express, Mail and Sun rabid tory, the Mirror rabid Labour So on the maths you are right. The BBC drove me nuts. At times tearing Labour apart and at others (Question Time, Marrs interview with Johnson) the other way. What really hacked me off was lack of proper debate. It reminded me of the Referendum a bit where diets of lies were spewed out and whoever hit the sensitive spot with a bit of rhetoric (NHS lies on a bus for example) won the day.
In conclusion, you make a point in para 2 about ‘actual public debate’. That I think is key and something I wish for - and Then if my views are wrong or change, that’s fine. It’s democracy. | | | |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 15:19 - Feb 21 with 1339 views | Darth_Koont |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 15:06 - Feb 21 by Churchman |
But was it overwhelming or does it depend on your viewpoint? I felt the Guardian was for Labour, but against Corbyn - sort of. The Indy much the same. The Telegraph, very tory, Times tory but critical. The Express, Mail and Sun rabid tory, the Mirror rabid Labour So on the maths you are right. The BBC drove me nuts. At times tearing Labour apart and at others (Question Time, Marrs interview with Johnson) the other way. What really hacked me off was lack of proper debate. It reminded me of the Referendum a bit where diets of lies were spewed out and whoever hit the sensitive spot with a bit of rhetoric (NHS lies on a bus for example) won the day.
In conclusion, you make a point in para 2 about ‘actual public debate’. That I think is key and something I wish for - and Then if my views are wrong or change, that’s fine. It’s democracy. |
Agreed. Nothing wrong with changing views and certainly most people's views do change over the years as new evidence/experiences are gained but also as certain attitudes harden and become more rigid.
But you hit the nail on the head here:"What really hacked me off was lack of proper debate. It reminded me of the Referendum a bit where diets of lies were spewed out and whoever hit the sensitive spot with a bit of rhetoric (NHS lies on a bus for example) won the day."
We increasingly seem to be responding to and thus being manipulated by micro-messaging and little snapshots of complex problems, even stuff that is quickly and easily disproved. And then that's it for the foreseeable. We only start questioning those slogans and attitudes over time but by then it's too late and some people never question them. Those same arguments on the side of the bus are still repeated and even when they become too toxic no-one admits that they were swayed by them.
There's a huge responsibility for the media to establish some sort of standard in the debate. But we have the least trusted media in the Western World (OECD I think) so clearly we are aware that something's going wrong with it as a whole. | |
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| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 23:12 - Feb 21 with 1257 views | Churchman |
| One of Corbyn’s besties has turned on Momentum on 15:19 - Feb 21 by Darth_Koont |
Agreed. Nothing wrong with changing views and certainly most people's views do change over the years as new evidence/experiences are gained but also as certain attitudes harden and become more rigid.
But you hit the nail on the head here:"What really hacked me off was lack of proper debate. It reminded me of the Referendum a bit where diets of lies were spewed out and whoever hit the sensitive spot with a bit of rhetoric (NHS lies on a bus for example) won the day."
We increasingly seem to be responding to and thus being manipulated by micro-messaging and little snapshots of complex problems, even stuff that is quickly and easily disproved. And then that's it for the foreseeable. We only start questioning those slogans and attitudes over time but by then it's too late and some people never question them. Those same arguments on the side of the bus are still repeated and even when they become too toxic no-one admits that they were swayed by them.
There's a huge responsibility for the media to establish some sort of standard in the debate. But we have the least trusted media in the Western World (OECD I think) so clearly we are aware that something's going wrong with it as a whole. |
The last two paragraphs are spot on. With regard to slogans on buses, I’d say that as a percentage my friends and acquaintances reflected the referendum result percentages, more or less. They gave me many reasons for Leave, none of which mentioned the bus nonsense, but I wonder deep down how many of them were subliminally influenced by it (the power of advertising)? Who am I to say, but I have my dark suspicions!
As for the media, both traditional and social, agreed, this is a major issue. It has responsibilities in my view and most definitely needs some sort of standard. But who sets these standards? We know the politicians will set them for their own agenda and media itself seems incapable of self regulation. It’s a genuine question without an answer at the moment. | | | |
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