| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... 16:20 - Sep 27 with 11491 views | chicoazul |
...in the forthcoming election (probably before Xmas btw, friends).
Simply put, the Maximum Leader and his cohort are such a bunch of absolute melts that they will, in effect, do what the EU tell them to. They have never negotiated anything more difficult than Islington council parking regulations or the rates to hire Hackney town hall so faced with Barnier they will simply end up accepting exactly what the EU want to give them. Since the EU want us to remain a key partner on economics, taxation, security, capital & people movement and egalitarianism this will be a straight forward agreement.
There are of course risks to this course, significant among them being that the Maximum Leader will himself be quickly stood down from his position by the Communist arrivistes headed by Seamus Milne. Swings and roundabouts. |  |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:30 - Sep 28 with 2191 views | Clapham_Junction |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:04 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
oh come on! The EDL and BNP have nothing - you can't just decide x many tories are racists to make your numbers add up! And Euro-scepticism isn't just right wing thing either.
Face it: We're the tolerant, decent, liberal, middle of the road conscience of Europe. Someone's got to do it, especially right now - luckily they have us. . |
To be honest, I think he's right about this.
Two-round presidential elections in countries which aren't completely two-party systems mean that someone can get through to the second round with a relatively low vote share, and then will eventually end up what appears to be a very high vote share in the second round.
Because the UK doesn't have any elections of note of this type, it doesn't happen. However, I don't think it's unrealistic to say that it wouldn't. UKIP won the most votes in the most recent EU elections, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if we had a presidential election at a time when one of the major parties was in a bit of a slump, that a UKIP candidate could have made it through to the second round, at which point they'd probably hoover up a good number of votes from one of the major parties that didn't get through. |  | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:33 - Sep 28 with 2177 views | manchego |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:46 - Sep 28 by GlasgowBlue |
You're right that the left wing has been neutered in the UK for several decades but there is a reason for that. It fails.
And that's why the youth, actually not just the youth but a lot of socially mobile middle class people, have flirted with Corbynism.
They haven't lived through that period of economic failure. |
To say "it fails" is somewhat true but doesn't everything ?
Are we not looking for the 'best' fail ?
What is the best fail ?
I have no idea and I'm a bit depressed thinking about it. I'm old and I've seen all sorts of Governments and I'm tempted to say people are the problem. Or maybe the sort of people who want to be politicians are the problem.
I work in a school ( good area ) and the budget is so tight it's squeaking. A friend who I met recently ( Islington school - good part of N1 ) said that they wrote to all parents asking for money for things. No kind of charade, just a request for money.
The Tory austerity decision is cynical and they know it doesn't work but they don't care. They don't care for a living. It's their job. They love not giving a S.
I don't think Jeremy is fit for the role of PM - although I have vote Labour loads of times.
So I'm left thinking we are doomed. I wish I could offer something but I can't.
X |  | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:39 - Sep 28 with 2169 views | giant_stow |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:30 - Sep 28 by Clapham_Junction |
To be honest, I think he's right about this.
Two-round presidential elections in countries which aren't completely two-party systems mean that someone can get through to the second round with a relatively low vote share, and then will eventually end up what appears to be a very high vote share in the second round.
Because the UK doesn't have any elections of note of this type, it doesn't happen. However, I don't think it's unrealistic to say that it wouldn't. UKIP won the most votes in the most recent EU elections, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if we had a presidential election at a time when one of the major parties was in a bit of a slump, that a UKIP candidate could have made it through to the second round, at which point they'd probably hoover up a good number of votes from one of the major parties that didn't get through. |
while I respect your post (and clear knowledge...gulp) i disagree: the french have been flirting with the far right for decades, where as here, we know how to treat such silliness (point and laugh). The far right would never get anywhere near power here.
Edit: ukip doing well in that election was symptomatic of their one cause - they caught a wave, never to be repeated and certainly not in an election which matters. [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 18:41]
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:43 - Sep 28 with 2159 views | giant_stow |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:33 - Sep 28 by manchego |
To say "it fails" is somewhat true but doesn't everything ?
Are we not looking for the 'best' fail ?
What is the best fail ?
I have no idea and I'm a bit depressed thinking about it. I'm old and I've seen all sorts of Governments and I'm tempted to say people are the problem. Or maybe the sort of people who want to be politicians are the problem.
I work in a school ( good area ) and the budget is so tight it's squeaking. A friend who I met recently ( Islington school - good part of N1 ) said that they wrote to all parents asking for money for things. No kind of charade, just a request for money.
The Tory austerity decision is cynical and they know it doesn't work but they don't care. They don't care for a living. It's their job. They love not giving a S.
I don't think Jeremy is fit for the role of PM - although I have vote Labour loads of times.
So I'm left thinking we are doomed. I wish I could offer something but I can't.
X |
Highbury grove?!
edit: thats N5 - silly me. Must be the school formerly known as Islington Green [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 18:47]
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:44 - Sep 28 with 2154 views | manchego |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:39 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
while I respect your post (and clear knowledge...gulp) i disagree: the french have been flirting with the far right for decades, where as here, we know how to treat such silliness (point and laugh). The far right would never get anywhere near power here.
Edit: ukip doing well in that election was symptomatic of their one cause - they caught a wave, never to be repeated and certainly not in an election which matters. [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 18:41]
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If we had a system of PR the right would make some kind of representation that we would be shocked by. | | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:49 - Sep 28 with 2142 views | giant_stow |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:44 - Sep 28 by manchego |
If we had a system of PR the right would make some kind of representation that we would be shocked by. |
maybe but that might be balanced by an increased Green and Liberal vote. If the labour party split into left and centre, more so. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:50 - Sep 28 with 2140 views | Clapham_Junction |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:39 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
while I respect your post (and clear knowledge...gulp) i disagree: the french have been flirting with the far right for decades, where as here, we know how to treat such silliness (point and laugh). The far right would never get anywhere near power here.
Edit: ukip doing well in that election was symptomatic of their one cause - they caught a wave, never to be repeated and certainly not in an election which matters. [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 18:41]
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I think that's more down to our political/electoral system having so much inertia and no opportunity for a one-off vote like the French presidency. With a parliament elected using FPTP, it's far less likely because even with 20%+ of the vote, a party would struggle to get many seats. Also, parties can be wiped out completely even if they increase their vote share, meaning they don't get the opportunity to slowly boost their presence over several electoral cycles - the BNP were the main opposition on Barking & Dagenham council until the 2010 elections, in which they received more votes than in 2006, but still lost every seat they held
If UKIP had been able to enter parliament and had a realistic chance of winning more seats each time (e.g. if we had PR), I think they would have grown quite rapidly over several elections in the last decade or so. | | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 19:02 - Sep 28 with 2121 views | manchego |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:49 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
maybe but that might be balanced by an increased Green and Liberal vote. If the labour party split into left and centre, more so. |
Now that to me sounds like a system of representational democracy. | | | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 19:33 - Sep 28 with 2096 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:04 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
oh come on! The EDL and BNP have nothing - you can't just decide x many tories are racists to make your numbers add up! And Euro-scepticism isn't just right wing thing either.
Face it: We're the tolerant, decent, liberal, middle of the road conscience of Europe. Someone's got to do it, especially right now - luckily they have us. . |
Clapham answered this better than I could.
But your last paragraph is on a par with Americans calling themselves Leaders of the Free World and the Defenders of Democracy. That's their patriotism talking which is fair enough for the powerhouse they've become but a way of ignoring or at worst justifying some pretty horrible sh!t they do in their own self-interest. Around the world and even to their citizens that don't matter for some reason or another.
I love the UK and a lot of what's great definitely has come from what we've achieved over the last two or three centuries. Unfortunately that builds a self-confidence and a lack of introspection. And it also relies on a lot of denial. Nowadays we have the confidence in our historic position in the world but are completely blind to the realities that will decide our future position. I'd love the Brexit referendum and its aftermath to bring some truths home but I just get the feeling that too many people can't or won't see it.
I'd take British engineering and manufacturing as a microcosm of that where we've kept the confidence and even the reputation but lost control of the business side of things, especially the jobs.
Crikey! Look at me waxing all political. More like w@nking all political. It's Friday, just sipping a big glass of Dark 'n' Stormy, and my daughters are making their trademark guacamole so it's easy to get a bit emotional and OTT.  You're one of the good ones, ullaa. And I like that we agree as much as we disagree. Have a good weekend and make the UK proud by losing miserably on Saturday. |  |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 19:37 - Sep 28 with 2090 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:44 - Sep 28 by manchego |
If we had a system of PR the right would make some kind of representation that we would be shocked by. |
Maybe. But I think they pose a bigger threat by being a stalking horse that seems to have dragged us towards a difficult point for our current system.
At least out in the open and standing on their own two feet (rather than trying to take the legs out of others) we can address what they're saying. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:16 - Sep 28 with 2057 views | manchego |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 19:37 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
Maybe. But I think they pose a bigger threat by being a stalking horse that seems to have dragged us towards a difficult point for our current system.
At least out in the open and standing on their own two feet (rather than trying to take the legs out of others) we can address what they're saying. |
I think we should address what they are saying. If that means extreme left and right having a voice we need to know about it and defeat it by talking about it. Exposing them is the way to defeat them. | | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:18 - Sep 28 with 2047 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:30 - Sep 28 by Clapham_Junction |
To be honest, I think he's right about this.
Two-round presidential elections in countries which aren't completely two-party systems mean that someone can get through to the second round with a relatively low vote share, and then will eventually end up what appears to be a very high vote share in the second round.
Because the UK doesn't have any elections of note of this type, it doesn't happen. However, I don't think it's unrealistic to say that it wouldn't. UKIP won the most votes in the most recent EU elections, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if we had a presidential election at a time when one of the major parties was in a bit of a slump, that a UKIP candidate could have made it through to the second round, at which point they'd probably hoover up a good number of votes from one of the major parties that didn't get through. |
You're first paragraph is certainly correct.
However it's not the case in France, the FN vote only increased by 2.5m in the secondary vote. They got a good share in both rounds although the first round was close for everyone, even Macron.
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:30 - Sep 28 with 2031 views | Clapham_Junction |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:18 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
You're first paragraph is certainly correct.
However it's not the case in France, the FN vote only increased by 2.5m in the secondary vote. They got a good share in both rounds although the first round was close for everyone, even Macron.
SB |
Le Pen got 34% in the second round (up over 10% on the first), which I'd say is a very high vote share for a far-right candidate in a major country.
The absolute number of votes didn't increase that much, but the percentages for the candidates changed more significantly because of a lower turnout and a very high number of spoiled or blank votes (over four million). [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 20:35]
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:33 - Sep 28 with 2029 views | Gromheort |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:16 - Sep 28 by manchego |
I think we should address what they are saying. If that means extreme left and right having a voice we need to know about it and defeat it by talking about it. Exposing them is the way to defeat them. |
There's an irony there though. Those classed as the 'extreme left' are typically those that understand Popper's 'Paradox of Tolerance' and most effectively fight against the extreme right. |  | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:41 - Sep 28 with 2012 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:30 - Sep 28 by Clapham_Junction |
Le Pen got 34% in the second round (up over 10% on the first), which I'd say is a very high vote share for a far-right candidate in a major country.
The absolute number of votes didn't increase that much, but the percentages for the candidates changed more significantly because of a lower turnout and a very high number of spoiled or blank votes (over four million). [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 20:35]
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Agreed.
But given the reasons you've just listed the % in the second round is misleading. Absolute vote increase for herself and Macron is more meaningful given vote spoiling etc.
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:46 - Sep 28 with 2004 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:33 - Sep 28 by Gromheort |
There's an irony there though. Those classed as the 'extreme left' are typically those that understand Popper's 'Paradox of Tolerance' and most effectively fight against the extreme right. |
There are quite a lot of people recently who would disagree with that entire sentence.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:48 - Sep 28 with 1997 views | Gromheort |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:46 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
There are quite a lot of people recently who would disagree with that entire sentence.
SB |
That you don't defeat fascism by sitting on your backside and tutting? Probably. | | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:50 - Sep 28 with 1992 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:48 - Sep 28 by Gromheort |
That you don't defeat fascism by sitting on your backside and tutting? Probably. |
The only form of intolerance is fascism?
I see.
Any thoughts on tomorrows match?
SB [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 20:50]
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:53 - Sep 28 with 1985 views | Gromheort |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:50 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
The only form of intolerance is fascism?
I see.
Any thoughts on tomorrows match?
SB [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 20:50]
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Sounds like you haven't understood the Paradox, nor how anti-fascists are painted (look to Trump for more 'honest' commentary)
1 0 victory | | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 21:10 - Sep 28 with 1962 views | Clapham_Junction |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:41 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
Agreed.
But given the reasons you've just listed the % in the second round is misleading. Absolute vote increase for herself and Macron is more meaningful given vote spoiling etc.
SB |
Hence why I caveated my original statement with "what appears to be a very high vote share" | | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 21:18 - Sep 28 with 1952 views | giant_stow |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 19:33 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
Clapham answered this better than I could.
But your last paragraph is on a par with Americans calling themselves Leaders of the Free World and the Defenders of Democracy. That's their patriotism talking which is fair enough for the powerhouse they've become but a way of ignoring or at worst justifying some pretty horrible sh!t they do in their own self-interest. Around the world and even to their citizens that don't matter for some reason or another.
I love the UK and a lot of what's great definitely has come from what we've achieved over the last two or three centuries. Unfortunately that builds a self-confidence and a lack of introspection. And it also relies on a lot of denial. Nowadays we have the confidence in our historic position in the world but are completely blind to the realities that will decide our future position. I'd love the Brexit referendum and its aftermath to bring some truths home but I just get the feeling that too many people can't or won't see it.
I'd take British engineering and manufacturing as a microcosm of that where we've kept the confidence and even the reputation but lost control of the business side of things, especially the jobs.
Crikey! Look at me waxing all political. More like w@nking all political. It's Friday, just sipping a big glass of Dark 'n' Stormy, and my daughters are making their trademark guacamole so it's easy to get a bit emotional and OTT. You're one of the good ones, ullaa. And I like that we agree as much as we disagree. Have a good weekend and make the UK proud by losing miserably on Saturday. |
Likewise mr. Enjoy your evening. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 22:16 - Sep 28 with 1923 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 20:53 - Sep 28 by Gromheort |
Sounds like you haven't understood the Paradox, nor how anti-fascists are painted (look to Trump for more 'honest' commentary)
1 0 victory |
Out of interest, do you ever support any of your assertions on the various forums you post on or do you just declare yourself correct and move on?
All you do is post vague nonsense. When you are able or can be bothered to actually support a point then maybe you'll be worth listening to.
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 22:43 - Sep 28 with 1913 views | Gromheort |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 22:16 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
Out of interest, do you ever support any of your assertions on the various forums you post on or do you just declare yourself correct and move on?
All you do is post vague nonsense. When you are able or can be bothered to actually support a point then maybe you'll be worth listening to.
SB |
You got the Paradox wrong and then blamed me for it. Add SB to make it sensible! | | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 06:45 - Sep 29 with 1834 views | tcblue |
Even the softest Brexit requires a border for NI and so will lead to the breakup of the UK, because the Good Friday Agreement was built on the notion that nationalism was a bit old hat, we are all EU citizens.
The minute that spell breaks, Nationalists and Unionists resume hostilities (worst case), or before that happens, NI secedes (best case). That's why NI, despite being arguably one of the poorer areas, broke with the trend of poor area voting and wanted to Remain, as despite the majority being Unionists, they understood a political problem that our government had somehow not thought of.
So, Cameron, Corbyn, Boris et al have wrecked the UK. Rule Britannia. |  | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 08:01 - Sep 29 with 1826 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 22:43 - Sep 28 by Gromheort |
You got the Paradox wrong and then blamed me for it. Add SB to make it sensible! |
Unbelievable.
Enjoy the match, I'd be happy with your prediction today.
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