| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit 09:51 - Sep 12 with 17929 views | BOjK |
I'm sure all those trade deals will be trivial to work out and will more than compensate for the loss of membership of the single market.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41233257
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 08:20 - Sep 13 with 4987 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 08:14 - Sep 13 by WeWereZombies |
OK, I will try and use words of one syllable only in my replies to you from now on |
Leave? Won? [Post edited 13 Sep 2017 8:21]
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 08:21 - Sep 13 with 4989 views | WeWereZombies |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 08:20 - Sep 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Leave? Won? [Post edited 13 Sep 2017 8:21]
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Not yet... |  |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 11:51 - Sep 13 with 4917 views | StokieBlue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 19:59 - Sep 12 by WeWereZombies |
Neither you nor I have the faintest idea of what mental processes went to in the minds of those who didn't vote but in such a complex set of issues do you not think some were just too bamboozled or disenchanted with a torrent of information and mis-information to come to a final decision rather than not caring? |
That's a fair point but in the context of your statistic it's entirely irrelevant.
Elections or referendums are decided on the votes actually cast, not the votes cast divided by the total number of people who could have voted. The figure you quoted is a total misrepresentation of the statistics.
I am sure you know it's incredibly disingenuous number, however many people do not know or understand so I think it's very wrong to keep quoting it.
I am speaking as a remain voter, I just dislike the abuse of statistics in order to try and make it seem like a relevant point when it's not. There are plenty of other very relevant points you could push.
SB [Post edited 13 Sep 2017 11:54]
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 12:02 - Sep 13 with 4903 views | No9 |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 16:14 - Sep 12 by GlasgowBlue |
"You might have heard the claim that only 8% of the EU’s exports go to the UK, compared to the well over 40% of UK exports that go to other EU countries.
Whether the 8% is correct depends on how you treat exports between EU countries. Looked at another way, you can get 18%.
About 8% of the EU’s goods and services exports to EU and non-EU countries went to the UK in 2015. That includes exports from EU countries to other EU countries, as well as to non-EU countries.
The other way to look at it is to say that what we’re really interested in is how important the UK would be to the EU’s trade with countries outside of the EU only, when we leave the EU. Looked at that way, about 18% of the EU’s goods and services exports to non-EU countries went to the UK in 2015, according to EU data."
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/ |
You now post number from FullFact which are contrary to what you posted earlier which is why I have warned against using their data rather than official sites.
There is alway contradictory numbers e.g the UK always contest they have a trade surpuls with the USA & the USA contest thay have a trade surplus with the UK.
What really is more important is what makes up the trade.
It is OK for the UK to sell large qualities of RR & Bently cars to the USA but they could not do that without componets from the German owners (& management ) of these marques. Similarly the Airbus factories in the UK can't export wings etc.back into the EU without first recieving the components and materials that make completing the assembly possible.
Whether Airbus continue in the UK & whether the Germans decide it is easier & better to manufacture RR & Bentley elsewhere is another matter.
As I poste previously this is a very complicated area that the leave campaign are denying. |  | | |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 12:15 - Sep 13 with 4889 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 12:02 - Sep 13 by No9 |
You now post number from FullFact which are contrary to what you posted earlier which is why I have warned against using their data rather than official sites.
There is alway contradictory numbers e.g the UK always contest they have a trade surpuls with the USA & the USA contest thay have a trade surplus with the UK.
What really is more important is what makes up the trade.
It is OK for the UK to sell large qualities of RR & Bently cars to the USA but they could not do that without componets from the German owners (& management ) of these marques. Similarly the Airbus factories in the UK can't export wings etc.back into the EU without first recieving the components and materials that make completing the assembly possible.
Whether Airbus continue in the UK & whether the Germans decide it is easier & better to manufacture RR & Bentley elsewhere is another matter.
As I poste previously this is a very complicated area that the leave campaign are denying. |
The second post from full fact supports the first one. They use data from the ONS and the EU. | |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 15:14 - Sep 13 with 4853 views | crunchie1978 |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 21:45 - Sep 12 by Darth_Koont |
I don't think you understand the importance of us Europeans sticking together. If anyone thinks that they'd rather just go it alone and somehow profit from the way the rest of the world is run then they deserve everything that's coming to them.
The fact that Brexit doesn't even make economic sense (let alone social or cultural) is the icing on the cake. [Post edited 13 Sep 2017 6:12]
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But for me...im English...im not European...and that should be the right of every citizen of every country in the eu....they are all citizens of their countries first and foremost. | | | |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 15:18 - Sep 13 with 4843 views | No9 |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 12:15 - Sep 13 by GlasgowBlue |
The second post from full fact supports the first one. They use data from the ONS and the EU. |
The numbers contradict each other if you bother to read them. | | | |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 15:47 - Sep 13 with 4838 views | Darth_Koont |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 15:14 - Sep 13 by crunchie1978 |
But for me...im English...im not European...and that should be the right of every citizen of every country in the eu....they are all citizens of their countries first and foremost. |
That has always been the case.
Too many of our politicians and too much of our media has been spouting this lie that we don't have rights of our own or can't decide for ourselves on issues (yet we generally have done). |  |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 22:11 - Sep 13 with 4802 views | Freddies_Ears |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 15:47 - Sep 13 by Darth_Koont |
That has always been the case.
Too many of our politicians and too much of our media has been spouting this lie that we don't have rights of our own or can't decide for ourselves on issues (yet we generally have done). |
I will have far fewer rights post-Brexit than I have now.
I lose the right to work across most of Europe. I lose the right to study across most of Europe. I lose the right to buy property on the same terms as locals across most of Europe. I lose the right to live with healthcare guaranteed and pension paid across most of Europe.
And I am a lucky one. If my partner were a non-UK European, then our family future would be massively impacted. | | | |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 22:32 - Sep 13 with 4789 views | WeWereZombies |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 11:51 - Sep 13 by StokieBlue |
That's a fair point but in the context of your statistic it's entirely irrelevant.
Elections or referendums are decided on the votes actually cast, not the votes cast divided by the total number of people who could have voted. The figure you quoted is a total misrepresentation of the statistics.
I am sure you know it's incredibly disingenuous number, however many people do not know or understand so I think it's very wrong to keep quoting it.
I am speaking as a remain voter, I just dislike the abuse of statistics in order to try and make it seem like a relevant point when it's not. There are plenty of other very relevant points you could push.
SB [Post edited 13 Sep 2017 11:54]
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I'm just illustrating that the number of people who physically voted to leave was actually quite low, and my follow on point was that the referendum did not have to be binding upon Parliament either. So why the panic amongst all and sundry to rush through Article 50? I'm puzzled, is it fear of a right-wing coup or civil disorder? When Ian Blackford botched the Commons debate triggered by the four million vote petition even Caroline Lucas and Chuka Umunna were having an off-topic discussion about post-Brexit strategy.
Why is everyone running so scared? It's fishier than one of Glasgow Blue's website links... | |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 22:37 - Sep 13 with 4783 views | StokieBlue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 22:32 - Sep 13 by WeWereZombies |
I'm just illustrating that the number of people who physically voted to leave was actually quite low, and my follow on point was that the referendum did not have to be binding upon Parliament either. So why the panic amongst all and sundry to rush through Article 50? I'm puzzled, is it fear of a right-wing coup or civil disorder? When Ian Blackford botched the Commons debate triggered by the four million vote petition even Caroline Lucas and Chuka Umunna were having an off-topic discussion about post-Brexit strategy.
Why is everyone running so scared? It's fishier than one of Glasgow Blue's website links... |
But:
"I'm just illustrating that the number of people who physically voted to leave was actually quite low"
This is entirely irrelevant. Given the way that elections work to make that point mean anything you have to fudge the statistics in a quite horrible way.
Can you not accept that and agree that using that number is disingenuous? To apply your statistical analysis to any previous election would yield similar results given turnouts and you could say no government was really voted in.
The other points are completely separate issues which I am not debating - I just don't think you should use the number you are as if it actually means something.
SB [Post edited 13 Sep 2017 22:38]
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 23:14 - Sep 13 with 4768 views | WeWereZombies |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 22:37 - Sep 13 by StokieBlue |
But:
"I'm just illustrating that the number of people who physically voted to leave was actually quite low"
This is entirely irrelevant. Given the way that elections work to make that point mean anything you have to fudge the statistics in a quite horrible way.
Can you not accept that and agree that using that number is disingenuous? To apply your statistical analysis to any previous election would yield similar results given turnouts and you could say no government was really voted in.
The other points are completely separate issues which I am not debating - I just don't think you should use the number you are as if it actually means something.
SB [Post edited 13 Sep 2017 22:38]
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Firstly It wasn't an election, it was a referendum. That the result was damn near inconclusive is entirely relevant, that's the reason I am making this point. Also, I am not making a statistical analysis, it is very simple arithmetic (although not simple enough for some) - an indication, a weighting, a testing of the water. Yes, it was shocking (and those who wish to Remain should have been better prepared for it) how many were disaffected with the EU, or the establishment, or them, or the man, or something - but did everyone really need to wobble off and give in at the first gust of adverse wind? A better deal from the EU was there for the taking and instead we send some knighted office boy to be sneered at by Donald Tusk. | |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 23:24 - Sep 13 with 4762 views | StokieBlue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 23:14 - Sep 13 by WeWereZombies |
Firstly It wasn't an election, it was a referendum. That the result was damn near inconclusive is entirely relevant, that's the reason I am making this point. Also, I am not making a statistical analysis, it is very simple arithmetic (although not simple enough for some) - an indication, a weighting, a testing of the water. Yes, it was shocking (and those who wish to Remain should have been better prepared for it) how many were disaffected with the EU, or the establishment, or them, or the man, or something - but did everyone really need to wobble off and give in at the first gust of adverse wind? A better deal from the EU was there for the taking and instead we send some knighted office boy to be sneered at by Donald Tusk. |
It's a disingenuous statistic and it's pretty poor that you refuse to accept that.
No vote of any kind (referendum, election, down the pub) is quoted in the way you have in order to support your view. You do not include the people who don't vote in the overall percentage totals. It's incorrect to do so and never done.
Even as someone who voted remain I think it's pretty poor form.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 23:40 - Sep 13 with 4755 views | WeWereZombies |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 23:24 - Sep 13 by StokieBlue |
It's a disingenuous statistic and it's pretty poor that you refuse to accept that.
No vote of any kind (referendum, election, down the pub) is quoted in the way you have in order to support your view. You do not include the people who don't vote in the overall percentage totals. It's incorrect to do so and never done.
Even as someone who voted remain I think it's pretty poor form.
SB |
To me that just sounds like I have made a good point that you are uncomfortable with so you keep pushing me to retract, why would I do that when you let me know I have hit home?
More pertinent still is that there is obviously a strong undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the way that Brexit is being conducted and there appears to be no politician or statesman capable of uniting, or at least guiding the UK - that can't be good for anyone in the long term. It is important not to appease and to make clear the strength of our objections, it's the British way of doing things (even if it is a bit pompous). | |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 00:33 - Sep 14 with 4747 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 23:40 - Sep 13 by WeWereZombies |
To me that just sounds like I have made a good point that you are uncomfortable with so you keep pushing me to retract, why would I do that when you let me know I have hit home?
More pertinent still is that there is obviously a strong undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the way that Brexit is being conducted and there appears to be no politician or statesman capable of uniting, or at least guiding the UK - that can't be good for anyone in the long term. It is important not to appease and to make clear the strength of our objections, it's the British way of doing things (even if it is a bit pompous). |
I think they're hoping people will get bored of it all and then they can do what they want. |  |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 01:00 - Sep 14 with 4743 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 22:11 - Sep 13 by Freddies_Ears |
I will have far fewer rights post-Brexit than I have now.
I lose the right to work across most of Europe. I lose the right to study across most of Europe. I lose the right to buy property on the same terms as locals across most of Europe. I lose the right to live with healthcare guaranteed and pension paid across most of Europe.
And I am a lucky one. If my partner were a non-UK European, then our family future would be massively impacted. |
So selfish! What about the right of the Tory party to shape your future by increasingly circumnavigating our centuries old system of parliamentary scrutiny?
Some people need to get their priorities in order  | |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 07:35 - Sep 14 with 4717 views | gordon |
Aren't we now going for a transitional deal 'that looks a lot like the status quo'?
Seems a shame to waste that free trade area 'ten times bigger than Europe' that Liam Fox has lined up for us, though.
I'd probably have voted leave too if I'd known how hilarious it would be. |  | | |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 07:54 - Sep 14 with 4708 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 23:40 - Sep 13 by WeWereZombies |
To me that just sounds like I have made a good point that you are uncomfortable with so you keep pushing me to retract, why would I do that when you let me know I have hit home?
More pertinent still is that there is obviously a strong undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the way that Brexit is being conducted and there appears to be no politician or statesman capable of uniting, or at least guiding the UK - that can't be good for anyone in the long term. It is important not to appease and to make clear the strength of our objections, it's the British way of doing things (even if it is a bit pompous). |
I think we've coined a new term in here. "Zombie Logic"
Today's Zombie Logic:
In 2015, David Cameron's Conservatives polled 36% and gained an overall majority. In 2017, Theresa May's Conservatives polled 42%. Theresa May had a better election than Cameron and has a far stronger mandate for government.
We could make Zombie Logic a daily feature on here. Like pause for thought on the radio. [Post edited 14 Sep 2017 7:58]
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 09:08 - Sep 14 with 4695 views | StokieBlue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 23:40 - Sep 13 by WeWereZombies |
To me that just sounds like I have made a good point that you are uncomfortable with so you keep pushing me to retract, why would I do that when you let me know I have hit home?
More pertinent still is that there is obviously a strong undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the way that Brexit is being conducted and there appears to be no politician or statesman capable of uniting, or at least guiding the UK - that can't be good for anyone in the long term. It is important not to appease and to make clear the strength of our objections, it's the British way of doing things (even if it is a bit pompous). |
"To me that just sounds like I have made a good point that you are uncomfortable with so you keep pushing me to retract, why would I do that when you let me know I have hit home? "
I don't really understand, how have you hit home? You've used statistics in a horribly misleading and inappropriate way - that is all I have said - you shouldn't do that, you'd complain if leavers did something similar.
I've said multiple times I voted remain and thus I haven't said anything about any of your other points.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 10:23 - Sep 14 with 4671 views | WeWereZombies |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 07:54 - Sep 14 by GlasgowBlue |
I think we've coined a new term in here. "Zombie Logic"
Today's Zombie Logic:
In 2015, David Cameron's Conservatives polled 36% and gained an overall majority. In 2017, Theresa May's Conservatives polled 42%. Theresa May had a better election than Cameron and has a far stronger mandate for government.
We could make Zombie Logic a daily feature on here. Like pause for thought on the radio. [Post edited 14 Sep 2017 7:58]
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Hmm, a think about how we vote - nah, it will never work. | |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 10:35 - Sep 14 with 4665 views | solemio |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 07:35 - Sep 14 by gordon |
Aren't we now going for a transitional deal 'that looks a lot like the status quo'?
Seems a shame to waste that free trade area 'ten times bigger than Europe' that Liam Fox has lined up for us, though.
I'd probably have voted leave too if I'd known how hilarious it would be. |
This could be the way forward - governing by a hilarity index. It might become far more important than the FTSE 100.
Bill Bailey could be the first Governor of the Bank of Hilarity. | | | |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 10:53 - Sep 14 with 4645 views | eireblue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 09:08 - Sep 14 by StokieBlue |
"To me that just sounds like I have made a good point that you are uncomfortable with so you keep pushing me to retract, why would I do that when you let me know I have hit home? "
I don't really understand, how have you hit home? You've used statistics in a horribly misleading and inappropriate way - that is all I have said - you shouldn't do that, you'd complain if leavers did something similar.
I've said multiple times I voted remain and thus I haven't said anything about any of your other points.
SB |
In some respects I think Zombie is making a useful point.
Many politicians are using the line "..the people have spoken" or "..we must respect the will of the people"
Or if they are arguing against anyone for a softer or non-Brexit "...you are not respecting the democratic will of the people"
The referendum delivered nothing more than a clear split and a dilemma.
Not an overwhelming will by the people to leave the EU.
Being cynical I think there may well be many MPs facing the additional dilemma of doing what they think best, and what will keep them in a job. |  | | |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 11:00 - Sep 14 with 4643 views | hype313 |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 10:53 - Sep 14 by eireblue |
In some respects I think Zombie is making a useful point.
Many politicians are using the line "..the people have spoken" or "..we must respect the will of the people"
Or if they are arguing against anyone for a softer or non-Brexit "...you are not respecting the democratic will of the people"
The referendum delivered nothing more than a clear split and a dilemma.
Not an overwhelming will by the people to leave the EU.
Being cynical I think there may well be many MPs facing the additional dilemma of doing what they think best, and what will keep them in a job. |
The problem is that if they didn't respect the will of the people then the our whole democracy would be put into question, and then we would have people claiming all other elections/referendums/amendments etc are no longer valid and it would open a can of worms.
The whole Brexit is a complete mess, and we don't have the personnel that have any kind of gravitas to organise a cordial exit, but I just wish we got on with it and move on, because if it causes us huge financial pain then we are going to need to work out a way to overcome that, or if it frees us from the EU shackles and we go on to be prosperous then great. But this current situation is doing no one any favours. |  |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 11:19 - Sep 14 with 4630 views | StokieBlue |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 10:53 - Sep 14 by eireblue |
In some respects I think Zombie is making a useful point.
Many politicians are using the line "..the people have spoken" or "..we must respect the will of the people"
Or if they are arguing against anyone for a softer or non-Brexit "...you are not respecting the democratic will of the people"
The referendum delivered nothing more than a clear split and a dilemma.
Not an overwhelming will by the people to leave the EU.
Being cynical I think there may well be many MPs facing the additional dilemma of doing what they think best, and what will keep them in a job. |
That's not the point I am debating. I disagree with the use of the figure of 32% voting for leaving because it's clearly not how any vote is ever quoted and thus it's totally misleading. If leave quoted figures in such a misleading way then Zombie would be all over it.
Share of vote = X / (X + Y)
Where X is option A and Y is option B.
To use:
Share of vote = X / (X + Y + Z)
Where Z is the people who didn't bother to vote is completely misrepresentative of the actual voting. You cannot include people who didn't vote and say it's not the majority or the will of the people on that basis.
On the actual point of brexit, I didn't vote for it and am not happy with the way it's being managed - it's a total shower. I am not arguing on that point as I tend to agree, I am pointing out that the figures are rather cheeky.
I also still think there is scope for a reversal - Labour seem to have decided that they can get the extra votes they need by reversing their brexit policy and I think they are probably right - it would have to be after we have left but it would be a vote winner with many people who don't usually consider voting Labour.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 11:43 - Sep 14 with 4620 views | WeWereZombies |
| This is all perfectly fine. No need to worry about things post-Brexit on 11:19 - Sep 14 by StokieBlue |
That's not the point I am debating. I disagree with the use of the figure of 32% voting for leaving because it's clearly not how any vote is ever quoted and thus it's totally misleading. If leave quoted figures in such a misleading way then Zombie would be all over it.
Share of vote = X / (X + Y)
Where X is option A and Y is option B.
To use:
Share of vote = X / (X + Y + Z)
Where Z is the people who didn't bother to vote is completely misrepresentative of the actual voting. You cannot include people who didn't vote and say it's not the majority or the will of the people on that basis.
On the actual point of brexit, I didn't vote for it and am not happy with the way it's being managed - it's a total shower. I am not arguing on that point as I tend to agree, I am pointing out that the figures are rather cheeky.
I also still think there is scope for a reversal - Labour seem to have decided that they can get the extra votes they need by reversing their brexit policy and I think they are probably right - it would have to be after we have left but it would be a vote winner with many people who don't usually consider voting Labour.
SB |
I would also disagree with the figure of 32% voting for leaving - because my first post on this said 38.1% - I know, I have gone back and checked I typed it correctly and I worked this number out (worked out, ha - I looked up a couple of figures on the BBC and plugged them into an unused cell on a spreadsheet, data entry almost) months ago. Like I worked out (sic) the numbers on the 2014 referendum after that happened. I think they matter.
Very simple basic point, very very simple, basic as basic can be. In an election you vote for an MP to represent your constituency on a variety of local and national issues as best as she or he can. The nearest analogy I can think of is employment, collectively we as a people through representative democracy employ six hundred odd bodies to fill some of the highest offices of state. In a referendum there tends to be one main issue with no representative elected officer of state in charge, only an expression of the will of the people. The best analogy I can think of is a company resolution, if the members are split nearly 50/50 and the matter at hand is one of vital importance, will affect the future running of the company, someone usually points out that under the articles of association a special resolution (often requiring the approval of 75% of those entitled to vote) is required... | |
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