| Sympathy for Paul Hurst 00:11 - Feb 10 with 3280 views | pablovian |
A reference point for Paul Hurst's tenure at Ipswich is Brian Clough's tenure at Leeds United.
Clough was a plain-speaking Yorkshire man who achieved excellent results managing Derby County. In July 1974, after Don Revie left Leeds to become the manager of England, Clough became the manager of Leeds. Results were poor, and his tenure at Leeds lasted just 44 days. There was hostility between the manager and his players. A dramatized version of the events was depicted in the film 'The Damned United". Twelve weeks after he was terminated by Leeds, Clough became tha manager of Nottingham Forest, where he enjoyed huge success for several years and remained for 18 years. Analyses of Clough's time at Elland Road have concluded that he correctly identified the need for a dramatic change of culture, but greatly underestimated the difficulty of changing a deeply-entrenched culture.
Paul Hurst is a plain-spoken Yorkshire man who achieved excellent results managing teams in the National League, League Two and League One. In May 2018, Hurst became the manager of Ipswich Town. Results were poor, and his tenure at Ipswich lasted less than five months. Future analyses of Hurst's time at Portman Road may well conclude that he correctly identified the need for a dramatic change of culture, but greatly underestimated the difficulty of changing a deeply-entrenched culture.
Consider the situation that Hurst inherited:
During the two previous seasons, the team had achieved mediocre results. Prior to Hurst's arrival, three significant loanees (Celina, Connolly and Carter-Vickers) and a talented forward (McGoldrick) had left. Other players were upset about the way that their previous manager had been treated, or felt unsettled about their futures. Within a few weeks Webster, Waghorn and Garner had moved on. The shelves had to be restocked quickly.
Hurst brought in several loanees, including talented young players (Chalobah, Pennington, and Edun) and a veteran forward (Walters). He attempted to sign a veteran defender (Collins). Hurst also signed players who had performed well in Leagues One and Two, including two defenders (Donacien and Nsiala), a midfielder (Nolan) and several forwards (Harrison, Jackson, Edwards, and Roberts).
With such drastic and rapid change, it was inevitable that it would take time for the squad to gel. Hurst did not manage expectations well. His dealings with established players seemed unnecessarily confrontational; and blaming the players for the loss to Exeter seemed like an abdication of his share of the responsibility. Even so, there were reasons to think that change could be weathered. Given a deserved away win, rather than a last-minute, undeserved loss, at Rotherham; effective adjustments to the way set-pieces were defended; a return to previous form for the goalkeeper; and a healthy Jonathan Walters; the corner could have been turned.
It was not to be. Momentum turned, hopes were dashed, patience ran out. In retrospect, Paul Hurst came into a difficult situation and did many, but not enough, things right. If he has learned from the experience, he will return to another job as a better manager and will achieve fresh success.
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 00:42 - Feb 10 with 3237 views | bournemouthblue |
The Walters injury was the one that killed him, I definitely think Walters would have made a difference. He was very much the physical presence we needed who would have directly benefited Jackson, Harrison and Sears
He was however brought in far too late, why he hadn't already identified the need for a targetman is a puzzler. I believe Shrewsbury played with one themselves? [Post edited 10 Feb 2019 0:44]
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 02:24 - Feb 10 with 3163 views | BlueBadger |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 00:42 - Feb 10 by bournemouthblue |
The Walters injury was the one that killed him, I definitely think Walters would have made a difference. He was very much the physical presence we needed who would have directly benefited Jackson, Harrison and Sears
He was however brought in far too late, why he hadn't already identified the need for a targetman is a puzzler. I believe Shrewsbury played with one themselves? [Post edited 10 Feb 2019 0:44]
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The answer to that question is 'because he was out of his depth, had bought badly and was flailing aorund for a solution, any solution'. |  |
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 05:15 - Feb 10 with 3105 views | christiand |
In Clough’s case, if you join an experienced squad and instantly rock the boat by questioning the morality of their achievements, that’s not going to endear him to those players. Leeds United at the time had a lot of seasoned international players, they needed managing differently to what Clough did at Derby with generally a much younger team. In addition, Clough didn’t have Peter Taylor as his number 2 at Elland Road, history showed when they worked together they were successful. Both different characters, who had contrasting strengths, but as a management team they were an excellent combination which Derby County and Nottingham Forest greatly benefitted from.
Regarding PH, too many gambles on lower league players and too many at one time, he didn’t really seem to know what his best XI was and quickly began to doubt his own methods, look at the copious amount of changes for the Norwich game at home earlier in the season and this approach continued thereafter. Nevertheless, the players have shown that they have been consistently poor not just for PH, but look at what they have done under PL. Their records at the club are almost identical! PH will shoulder most of the blame and rightly so for underestimating The Championship, but the players also need to have some semblance of responsibility for a truly woeful season. It’s been an absolute shocker, which will ultimately lead to our relegation!! |  |
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst o on 07:49 - Feb 10 with 2953 views | glassblower |
Interesting points but ultimately there was only one Brian Clough and been many others with success at lower levels who reached their ceiling higher level up. You never know he might be more than any more of the others the one that got a away - doubt it though. | | | |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 07:51 - Feb 10 with 2945 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 00:42 - Feb 10 by bournemouthblue |
The Walters injury was the one that killed him, I definitely think Walters would have made a difference. He was very much the physical presence we needed who would have directly benefited Jackson, Harrison and Sears
He was however brought in far too late, why he hadn't already identified the need for a targetman is a puzzler. I believe Shrewsbury played with one themselves? [Post edited 10 Feb 2019 0:44]
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Paul Hurst didn't want Walters. |  |
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 08:22 - Feb 10 with 2875 views | PositivelyPortman |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 07:51 - Feb 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Paul Hurst didn't want Walters. |
Do explain why he didn’t want him. |  |
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 08:33 - Feb 10 with 2836 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 08:22 - Feb 10 by PositivelyPortman |
Do explain why he didn’t want him. |
I don't know why he didn't want him - but he didn't.
By the time we got him PH was at the last chance saloon and JW was a ME signing. | |
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 09:09 - Feb 10 with 2730 views | brogansnose |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 08:22 - Feb 10 by PositivelyPortman |
Do explain why he didn’t want him. |
He was very disparaging about Walters in his comments to the press and , like his Lordship says, it was an Evans signing because he thought that Hurst had gone too far with his changes. This also adds credence to the idea that Hurst didn't have to actually get rid of ssome of the big name players. This is all in the public domain. Stop sticking up for the schmuck, he was a chuffin disaster. |  | | |
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 10:16 - Feb 10 with 2610 views | mrshallisfit |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 09:09 - Feb 10 by brogansnose |
He was very disparaging about Walters in his comments to the press and , like his Lordship says, it was an Evans signing because he thought that Hurst had gone too far with his changes. This also adds credence to the idea that Hurst didn't have to actually get rid of ssome of the big name players. This is all in the public domain. Stop sticking up for the schmuck, he was a chuffin disaster. |
Absolutely. Hurst massively underestimated the level needed at the Championship. He got in lower league players who were not up to the job. Just like him. We are in this situation due in some part to him. To hear him trying to rescue his reputation to get another job is more than galling. As you say he is a schmuck of the highest order. [Post edited 10 Feb 2019 10:17]
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 10:18 - Feb 10 with 2597 views | mrshallisfit |
Revisionist history is only ok if it is largely correct | | | |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 10:26 - Feb 10 with 2561 views | Garv |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 09:09 - Feb 10 by brogansnose |
He was very disparaging about Walters in his comments to the press and , like his Lordship says, it was an Evans signing because he thought that Hurst had gone too far with his changes. This also adds credence to the idea that Hurst didn't have to actually get rid of ssome of the big name players. This is all in the public domain. Stop sticking up for the schmuck, he was a chuffin disaster. |
What were the disparaging comments?
I only saw very positive soundbites about JW. |  |
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 10:31 - Feb 10 with 2521 views | LeagueOne |
Except Leeds were one of the best sides in the country. We were already one of the poorest sides in this league (we've won just 9 games since December 2017). So even if a manager of Cloughs standards did appear here, we'd have been in the relegation mix anyway, it's just Hursts use of the Evans budget confirmed it. [Post edited 10 Feb 2019 10:34]
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 10:39 - Feb 10 with 2489 views | TractorWood |
I can't believe our rigourous management structure of CEO and Director of Football allowed so many errors in such a short period. Oh wait. |  |
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| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 10:59 - Feb 10 with 2432 views | Whymarkmariner |
I work part time for a local Company. The original Company was taken over in 1999 and to be honest was a great Company. It has changed completely. Tea breaks and meal breaks are shorter, wages for new starts are a lot less and feelings between Management and ex the previous Company employees are not good. I can completely understand having worked for a Company for over 25 years how very difficult it is to accept different ways of working. The people in charge are not always as good, man management wise. Also another thing that makes ill feelings is the difference in wages of older employees and new starts which run into several thousands per year. Now I know that wages are not the problem with someone like Hurst coming in. But to make players fight for their places when previously they were guaranteed wouldn't go down well. I remember a bust up between Sir Bobby and Billy Baxter when Bobby first came to Town. This was probably due to the "New broom" syndrome and it's not easy for either the new guy and the senior players to accept that on the one hand he's brought in specifically to change things and on the other that they don't like or want change. | | | |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 11:27 - Feb 10 with 2357 views | No9 |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 08:33 - Feb 10 by Lord_Lucan |
I don't know why he didn't want him - but he didn't.
By the time we got him PH was at the last chance saloon and JW was a ME signing. |
"By the time we got him PH was at the last chance saloon and JW was a ME signing."
Interesting LL, does this really mean ME OR, his advisor? | | | |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 11:34 - Feb 10 with 2341 views | patrickswell |
I did a post a while back that Hurst had probably given a version of the “Take your medals..,” speech on his opening day and that it had rebounded on him.
There are similarities but Hurst got it horrifically wrong. Clough went to Leeds as an equal - he was arguably the most well known name in football at that point and could put himself right up against any of that Leeds side in terms of reputation.
Hurst was stepping up to manage us. He hadn’t bossed at this level before and he inherited a side packed with players who had played at a higher level for a longer time than he had ever managed at. By the second week of pre-season training, he’s coming out with the “There are players here with big reputations, I haven’t seen it yet” quote. If you were being charitable it could be a motivational masterstroke, “Is he talking about me? I’ll show him”. But Hurst had barely taken his coat off before he criticises the squad publically, doubtless leading to thoughts of “He doesn’t rate me, so why should I work for him”. Then he lumbers us with a load of players who have all struggled to step up. I have no sympathy beyond some of the rough decisions he copped in August. |  | | |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 11:39 - Feb 10 with 2325 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Sympathy for Paul Hurst on 11:27 - Feb 10 by No9 |
"By the time we got him PH was at the last chance saloon and JW was a ME signing."
Interesting LL, does this really mean ME OR, his advisor? |
Of course I wouldn’t know that but Marcus isn’t a football fool contrary to popular opinion and he has a large circle of advisors.
PH though I think was a disaster of Evans own making. | |
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