| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:36 - Jun 27 with 2134 views | StokieBlue |
For an anarchist, wouldn't a socialist be even worse than a free market capitalist?
SB |  |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:39 - Jun 27 with 2127 views | lowhouseblue |
I'm surprised you're so positive about trump's second term. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:41 - Jun 27 with 2123 views | CoachRob |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:36 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
For an anarchist, wouldn't a socialist be even worse than a free market capitalist?
SB |
Think your conflating socialism with communism, socialism can be decentralised and not statist. Second there is no free market capitalism, never has been never will be. |  | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:42 - Jun 27 with 2112 views | No9 |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:39 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
I'm surprised you're so positive about trump's second term. |
Why?
Middle America think Trump is doing a super job in making America great again.
Don't be too surprised if he gets a big majority
the only thing to stop that will be if someone can find a way to impeach him |  | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:43 - Jun 27 with 2113 views | StokieBlue |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:41 - Jun 27 by CoachRob |
Think your conflating socialism with communism, socialism can be decentralised and not statist. Second there is no free market capitalism, never has been never will be. |
Socialism can be decentralised however can you think of an example where it ever has been in practice?
You've applied that principle to your second sentence but not your first - seems a tad unfair? You are of course right that there has never been a true implementation of free market capitalism - I should have been more precise.
SB [Post edited 27 Jun 2018 9:44]
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:44 - Jun 27 with 2104 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:39 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
I'm surprised you're so positive about trump's second term. |
It's an observation of fact.......if only somebody had told new labour!
Latest.... John Lewes report profit of about 0 and close some branches of Waitrose! |  |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:46 - Jun 27 with 2095 views | StokieBlue |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:39 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
I'm surprised you're so positive about trump's second term. |
I'm surprised the US press isn't spinning the trade war more at the moment. The Shanghai composite is down 20% from it's highs in January and into bear territory now.
Loads of mileage for Fox news in that one, am surprised they don't have big Trump is winning the trade war banners everywhere.
SB | |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:47 - Jun 27 with 2093 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:36 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
For an anarchist, wouldn't a socialist be even worse than a free market capitalist?
SB |
No as I think our enlightened anarcho syndicates would develop a model more akin to socialism than dog eat dog Darwinist capitalism. Now as for that f#cker Stalin in Spain.......! | |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:59 - Jun 27 with 2067 views | crunchie1978 |
Do people on here only read the guardian? | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:00 - Jun 27 with 2067 views | StokieBlue |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:59 - Jun 27 by crunchie1978 |
Do people on here only read the guardian? |
I think most people read a variety of sources.
However the Guardian don't have a paywall so it's easier to post links from there.
What do you read?
SB | |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:03 - Jun 27 with 2057 views | BlueBadger |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:00 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
I think most people read a variety of sources.
However the Guardian don't have a paywall so it's easier to post links from there.
What do you read?
SB |
If you cut his index fingers off, nothing at all I suspect. |  |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:09 - Jun 27 with 2049 views | No9 |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:46 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
I'm surprised the US press isn't spinning the trade war more at the moment. The Shanghai composite is down 20% from it's highs in January and into bear territory now.
Loads of mileage for Fox news in that one, am surprised they don't have big Trump is winning the trade war banners everywhere.
SB |
Do you think Fox is more aware of any impeachment issues than they will admit to?
In other words would they shout too loud if Trump is impeached and his policies reversed???? | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:12 - Jun 27 with 2045 views | crunchie1978 |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:00 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
I think most people read a variety of sources.
However the Guardian don't have a paywall so it's easier to post links from there.
What do you read?
SB |
Takeaway lists mainly! | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:18 - Jun 27 with 2033 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
Identity politics innit |  | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:21 - Jun 27 with 2026 views | CoachRob |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 09:43 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
Socialism can be decentralised however can you think of an example where it ever has been in practice?
You've applied that principle to your second sentence but not your first - seems a tad unfair? You are of course right that there has never been a true implementation of free market capitalism - I should have been more precise.
SB [Post edited 27 Jun 2018 9:44]
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Fair point - there have been socialist policies enacted such as Alaska permanent fund, Venezuela wealth share and Bolsa Familia (Brazil) policies which did succeed successive governments. A true socialist country has yet to be tried and if you think that 97% of all economists are right wing neo-liberals you can understand why there is no rush to attempt it.
The modern Marxists and fintech socialists could provide the political and economic solutions to make it happen. I think energy, which isn't included in mainstream economic models, will be key to this. | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:23 - Jun 27 with 2019 views | StokieBlue |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:09 - Jun 27 by No9 |
Do you think Fox is more aware of any impeachment issues than they will admit to?
In other words would they shout too loud if Trump is impeached and his policies reversed???? |
I think it's highly unlikely that he's going to be impeached.
SB | |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:28 - Jun 27 with 2010 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:21 - Jun 27 by CoachRob |
Fair point - there have been socialist policies enacted such as Alaska permanent fund, Venezuela wealth share and Bolsa Familia (Brazil) policies which did succeed successive governments. A true socialist country has yet to be tried and if you think that 97% of all economists are right wing neo-liberals you can understand why there is no rush to attempt it.
The modern Marxists and fintech socialists could provide the political and economic solutions to make it happen. I think energy, which isn't included in mainstream economic models, will be key to this. |
You’ve been listening to Rifkin haven’t you? | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:36 - Jun 27 with 2002 views | StokieBlue |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:21 - Jun 27 by CoachRob |
Fair point - there have been socialist policies enacted such as Alaska permanent fund, Venezuela wealth share and Bolsa Familia (Brazil) policies which did succeed successive governments. A true socialist country has yet to be tried and if you think that 97% of all economists are right wing neo-liberals you can understand why there is no rush to attempt it.
The modern Marxists and fintech socialists could provide the political and economic solutions to make it happen. I think energy, which isn't included in mainstream economic models, will be key to this. |
I think the issue is more fundamental than you suggest. The reason that a true socialist country has never been tried is because once someone achieves a level of power they tend to want more for themselves and their families and thus they drift from their original socialist ideals towards more selfish policies.
All "socialist" states thus far still end up with a rich elite for this reason. Socialism might well be a perfect system, people however are far from perfect.
SB | |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 11:00 - Jun 27 with 1971 views | No9 |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:23 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
I think it's highly unlikely that he's going to be impeached.
SB |
Unless the democrats get a big influx in the mid-term elections? | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 11:30 - Jun 27 with 1950 views | CoachRob |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 10:36 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
I think the issue is more fundamental than you suggest. The reason that a true socialist country has never been tried is because once someone achieves a level of power they tend to want more for themselves and their families and thus they drift from their original socialist ideals towards more selfish policies.
All "socialist" states thus far still end up with a rich elite for this reason. Socialism might well be a perfect system, people however are far from perfect.
SB |
Thomas Sankara had a go before being killed by the French, you make a good point about statist socialism still having an elite however countries with socialist policies are far more equal than neo-liberal countries.
The idea that all socialists become neo-liberals once in power is a little naïve, as US and EU protectionism and military intervention play a role a destabilising socialist governments. I don't think socialism should try to be perfect but provide a sustainable level of living standards for as many people as possible, the idea that some forms of capitalism can't exist in this space is wrong and is required for its innovation.
I don't think you can get anything more fundamental than entire populations being sold the neo-liberal dogma that economics now is. | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 11:46 - Jun 27 with 1930 views | StokieBlue |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 11:30 - Jun 27 by CoachRob |
Thomas Sankara had a go before being killed by the French, you make a good point about statist socialism still having an elite however countries with socialist policies are far more equal than neo-liberal countries.
The idea that all socialists become neo-liberals once in power is a little naïve, as US and EU protectionism and military intervention play a role a destabilising socialist governments. I don't think socialism should try to be perfect but provide a sustainable level of living standards for as many people as possible, the idea that some forms of capitalism can't exist in this space is wrong and is required for its innovation.
I don't think you can get anything more fundamental than entire populations being sold the neo-liberal dogma that economics now is. |
"The idea that all socialists become neo-liberals once in power is a little naïve".
I didn't say this. I said they want the best for themselves and their families hence there is always an elite emerge. That doesn't mean you are no longer socialist and favour the free market which would be the neo-liberal position. Most "socialist" states carry on the same way whilst the elites quietly gather power and wealth.
SB | |
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| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 11:54 - Jun 27 with 1924 views | No9 |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 11:30 - Jun 27 by CoachRob |
Thomas Sankara had a go before being killed by the French, you make a good point about statist socialism still having an elite however countries with socialist policies are far more equal than neo-liberal countries.
The idea that all socialists become neo-liberals once in power is a little naïve, as US and EU protectionism and military intervention play a role a destabilising socialist governments. I don't think socialism should try to be perfect but provide a sustainable level of living standards for as many people as possible, the idea that some forms of capitalism can't exist in this space is wrong and is required for its innovation.
I don't think you can get anything more fundamental than entire populations being sold the neo-liberal dogma that economics now is. |
The current system of capitalism is dead but governemtns ensure the taxpayer continues to give it life support.
The Arfican continent is a good example of bad capitalism but the powers that be will sustain it as long as they can | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 12:07 - Jun 27 with 1916 views | CoachRob |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 11:46 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
"The idea that all socialists become neo-liberals once in power is a little naïve".
I didn't say this. I said they want the best for themselves and their families hence there is always an elite emerge. That doesn't mean you are no longer socialist and favour the free market which would be the neo-liberal position. Most "socialist" states carry on the same way whilst the elites quietly gather power and wealth.
SB |
I think if a country allows it's fiscal, legal and electorial systems to favour the elite then it isn't socialist. The point you make about families wanting the best for themselves is fine but history does not bare this out - look at the brutal plutocracy of Russia or how wealth was accrued in Britain by the aristocracy. I would argue that corruption is what leads to an elite. | | | |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 12:19 - Jun 27 with 1902 views | StokieBlue |
| Goodbye middle classes/center ground part 'xxx'..... on 12:07 - Jun 27 by CoachRob |
I think if a country allows it's fiscal, legal and electorial systems to favour the elite then it isn't socialist. The point you make about families wanting the best for themselves is fine but history does not bare this out - look at the brutal plutocracy of Russia or how wealth was accrued in Britain by the aristocracy. I would argue that corruption is what leads to an elite. |
Surely it is borne out by what you've said? The people in power allowed themselves to become elite and wealthy independent of the economic paradigm of the country.
Your point on corruption is an excellent one.
SB | |
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