| So now it’s done 22:57 - Sep 1 with 1732 views | Horsham |
My thoughts.
And I think the context of the January window is more important that what Ashton said during this one.
Just to reflect. Clarke, Broadhead, Hirst and Luongo. The first two are hugely significant as they were bought with fees around £1-1.5m and Hirst later made permanent for around the same fee. Why is the context important? Clarke and Broadhead came from big Premier League clubs on the back of decent performances on loan at championship teams. What kind of fees would they have been attracting this summer? Maybe I’m guessing a lot more, actually maybe 3 times more or so. In hindsight those guys and Hirst are tremendous value.
Fast forward to this window. Suddenly the previously skint championship is seemingly awash with cash from player trades. Ultimately that money has flowed into some championship clubs from the premier league but not us. We have seemingly been resolute in the principle of a deal needing to be justifiable on a value basis. Fundamentally unless this madness continues to be sustained for a long period of time then there has been little to no value in domestic transfers this summer. For instance the example of Simms. It’s hard based on the little I know of him to imagine £15m + player there. It certainly isn’t a sure fire thing that he is and when Coventry next come to trade him, I think there’s a strong chance there’ll fo it as a loss. Was there value for us to go toe to toe with them and outbid them? I don’t think so.
So I guess the trick now is to learn, because as many have said we’ve seemingly not moved as far forward as we’d have liked. For me it remains about securing value in player trading and using that to constantly drive the team forward and to plan strategically. Recruiting in oversees markets seems like something we’ve not cracked and if Ashton is to be as relentless as he says he is then I think we need to improve this. Not all leagues, all the time can be awash with money and we should be able to exploit those where there is value. The basic premise has to be to buy low and sell high.
Next summer I think will potentially be massive. It’s got to be almost inevitable we sell at least Davis for big money and we will have cash to spend. Fingers crossed we can spend it well.
Sorry waffle and late for me so I’ll leave it there! |  | | |  |
| So now it’s done on 08:48 - Sep 2 with 1529 views | ArnieM |
Great post Horsham and certainly not waffle. My twopenneth is below ( we all see things in our own way so hopefully others will post how they feel and see things without it becoming a slanging match).
Now the dust has settled and I’ve reflected a little I’d say the positives are we have kept our own primary players. Not sure if other clubs came in for any, anyway. But we’ve kept our squad together. So that a positive.
We have also signed Scarlett, Hutchinson, and Williams. Three very good young PL players. McKenna and our coaches will develop them further for sure, so as the season progresses snd they bed in we could see the benefits.
Negatives ( or is it a positive?).
Defensive cover. We didn’t bring in an experienced, championship level CB. We definitely need one in my view. But it looks like we’re keeping Baggott. Personally I’d be looking to drip feed this boy in and develop him further here. He’s probably the best CB at the club - he just lacks experience and that stage of development. If he’s got to learn on the job, do it here! So it could be a massive opportunity for him this season.
The player we have on trial, well he might be the answer but you have to ask why’s he out of contract. Why have clubs not really come in for him (if he’s that good)? He seems to have had a lot of clubs and not very long at each club. ….. I smell a rat tbh. Either injuries, attitude or wages. Probably all of them. The jury’s out and we’ll see what McKenna and Co think of him.
What this Championship window does demonstrate is what Ashton and his team ( and the owners) are now up against …. Premier league ( Sky ) money. Which totally distorts everything. Very average players going for ridiculous prices snd it’s all driven by Sky money and these top 5-6 PL clubs.
Leeds and Leicester transfer dealings in the championship as an example, have just push prices up for everyone else. Take them out of the equation and prices would probably drop.
It’s about time this parachute money was vastly reduced and ended after 1 season. It’d make clubs more responsible when buying players which in turn would dampen down this ridiculous inflation of players prices and wages paid . It’d killing the game. |  |
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| So now it’s done on 09:06 - Sep 2 with 1463 views | WeWereZombies |
| So now it’s done on 08:48 - Sep 2 by ArnieM |
Great post Horsham and certainly not waffle. My twopenneth is below ( we all see things in our own way so hopefully others will post how they feel and see things without it becoming a slanging match).
Now the dust has settled and I’ve reflected a little I’d say the positives are we have kept our own primary players. Not sure if other clubs came in for any, anyway. But we’ve kept our squad together. So that a positive.
We have also signed Scarlett, Hutchinson, and Williams. Three very good young PL players. McKenna and our coaches will develop them further for sure, so as the season progresses snd they bed in we could see the benefits.
Negatives ( or is it a positive?).
Defensive cover. We didn’t bring in an experienced, championship level CB. We definitely need one in my view. But it looks like we’re keeping Baggott. Personally I’d be looking to drip feed this boy in and develop him further here. He’s probably the best CB at the club - he just lacks experience and that stage of development. If he’s got to learn on the job, do it here! So it could be a massive opportunity for him this season.
The player we have on trial, well he might be the answer but you have to ask why’s he out of contract. Why have clubs not really come in for him (if he’s that good)? He seems to have had a lot of clubs and not very long at each club. ….. I smell a rat tbh. Either injuries, attitude or wages. Probably all of them. The jury’s out and we’ll see what McKenna and Co think of him.
What this Championship window does demonstrate is what Ashton and his team ( and the owners) are now up against …. Premier league ( Sky ) money. Which totally distorts everything. Very average players going for ridiculous prices snd it’s all driven by Sky money and these top 5-6 PL clubs.
Leeds and Leicester transfer dealings in the championship as an example, have just push prices up for everyone else. Take them out of the equation and prices would probably drop.
It’s about time this parachute money was vastly reduced and ended after 1 season. It’d make clubs more responsible when buying players which in turn would dampen down this ridiculous inflation of players prices and wages paid . It’d killing the game. |
The issue that some have with the loans of Hutchinson, Williams and Scarlett is that we are developing young talent for bigger clubs to profit from (even if he exercise an option to buy the player we are shelling out cash as well as having done some of the work to add that value.)
However whilst we remain in the Championship we are a useful home for the top six (or is it the top ten now ?) to give up and coming players game time and attention (with the team that McKenna and Ashton have assembled that attention must be close to the intensity that the big clubs can devote.) Will that change if we get promoted ? There can be little doubt that the fees we are expected to pay will increase, but we may also find that the loans will dry up - because who wants to increase the competitiveness of rivals ?
So I guess my argument is that I hope that this is the last window in which we see a trio of loans and from here on it is a case of full throttle development of our own young talent as well as carefully picked bought in players with pedigree. And the occasional recovery project as we have seen with Luongo and may see with Tuanzebe. |  |
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| So now it’s done on 09:06 - Sep 2 with 1458 views | Churchman |
Lots of good points in Horsham and Arnie’s posts.
Taking this on, I’ll be very interested in what in particular Ashton and possibly O’Leary have to say about this summer, the state of the club, the strategy going forwards. What is the owners view/support? Are our priorities as a club still the same?
We are clearly in a different environment to L1 and some of the stuff going on (Simms fee, you name it) is eyebrow raising. Has the summer met their expectations? If not, why? What does the future look like?
I am less interested in what KM has to say on this - his first priority is to back his own players.
For me, I had hoped we’d bring in an established CH to strengthen that area but in particular some challenge for Hirst. Maybe Scarlett will do that - I’ll be interested to see the boy play, just as I will Taylor when he gets a full league game. The other two loanees? Who knows but they must be given a chance.
If you take in particular the Jan window with the summer, we’ve done just fine, in my view. The two are not exclusive unless you believe in changing the whole team every year. |  | | |
| So now it’s done on 09:39 - Sep 2 with 1344 views | SaleAway |
My biggest takeaway from this window, it being the first one I've really paid attention to for a few years, is that the massive problem is the player hoarding of the big clubs. If you look at the premier League big clubs, they've all loaned out between 15 and 20 players. This is the thing that is killing the game, there needs to be a limit on club roster size.
It'll never happen, but essentially of the lower league clubs are going to be viable, they need to get a chance to develop players for themselves. If all the best ones are hoovered up by the big clubs, the value is all trapped. | |
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| So now it’s done on 09:49 - Sep 2 with 1299 views | WeWereZombies |
| So now it’s done on 09:39 - Sep 2 by SaleAway |
My biggest takeaway from this window, it being the first one I've really paid attention to for a few years, is that the massive problem is the player hoarding of the big clubs. If you look at the premier League big clubs, they've all loaned out between 15 and 20 players. This is the thing that is killing the game, there needs to be a limit on club roster size.
It'll never happen, but essentially of the lower league clubs are going to be viable, they need to get a chance to develop players for themselves. If all the best ones are hoovered up by the big clubs, the value is all trapped. |
But Chelsea have been doing that for a couple of decades now (discarding those they deem not worth developing with a devastating offhandedness, completely at odds with the care that Alex Ferguson exercised at Man United for example) and the situation has been documented as even worse in Italy and Belgium with very young players are shipped over from South America to sink or swim in Europe (typing that I realise how unfortunate the phrase is in relation to the migration passage...)
Like it or not we are part of the moneyball game too, the United States influence is seeing to that and we will benefit from it given the evidence so far. It is the nature of competitive capitalism that, even as the biggest organisations put up restrictive blocks to try and make their lives easier, the middle sized organisations become inventive and introduce new methods of competition (until they become big organisations that get bloated and start erecting barriers to trade.) [Post edited 2 Sep 2023 9:52]
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| So now it’s done on 10:03 - Sep 2 with 1266 views | chicoazul |
For me it looks like a second poor summer window in a row where we haven’t secured who we really wanted. |  |
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| So now it’s done on 10:09 - Sep 2 with 1226 views | Naylorsrightboot |
We have all this big back room staff who supposedly deal with player recruitment. All the analysis and data that goes to hunt out players for every position and the type we need according to Mr Ashton. Must cost a fortune for all that. Yet, still we end up with 4 kids that Kieran has known from training them years back. So what on earth is the point of all that analysis if still we are ending up with just a few kids Kieran knows. Can't the recruitment team pick anyone out, what's the point to all this data etc if it's not being used? |  | | |
| So now it’s done on 10:11 - Sep 2 with 1214 views | Keno |
| So now it’s done on 10:09 - Sep 2 by Naylorsrightboot |
We have all this big back room staff who supposedly deal with player recruitment. All the analysis and data that goes to hunt out players for every position and the type we need according to Mr Ashton. Must cost a fortune for all that. Yet, still we end up with 4 kids that Kieran has known from training them years back. So what on earth is the point of all that analysis if still we are ending up with just a few kids Kieran knows. Can't the recruitment team pick anyone out, what's the point to all this data etc if it's not being used? |
"4 kids that Kieran has known from training them years back"? |  |
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| So now it’s done on 10:16 - Sep 2 with 1192 views | Naylorsrightboot |
| So now it’s done on 10:11 - Sep 2 by Keno |
"4 kids that Kieran has known from training them years back"? |
He knows them all well, so where does the recruitment team come in? They are what he knows because all that analysis and data clearly hasn't borne any fruit. | | | |
| So now it’s done on 10:17 - Sep 2 with 1192 views | chicoazul |
| So now it’s done on 10:09 - Sep 2 by Naylorsrightboot |
We have all this big back room staff who supposedly deal with player recruitment. All the analysis and data that goes to hunt out players for every position and the type we need according to Mr Ashton. Must cost a fortune for all that. Yet, still we end up with 4 kids that Kieran has known from training them years back. So what on earth is the point of all that analysis if still we are ending up with just a few kids Kieran knows. Can't the recruitment team pick anyone out, what's the point to all this data etc if it's not being used? |
You’re very confused. | |
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| So now it’s done on 10:20 - Sep 2 with 1179 views | Naylorsrightboot |
| So now it’s done on 10:17 - Sep 2 by chicoazul |
You’re very confused. |
You clearly are. Where are your 3 massive signings with one breaking our transfer record then? You must be very frustrated this morning. Good job its back to school for you next week. | | | |
| So now it’s done on 10:22 - Sep 2 with 1172 views | Naylorsrightboot |
| So now it’s done on 10:11 - Sep 2 by Keno |
"4 kids that Kieran has known from training them years back"? |
It's taken the manager to find these signings because the expensive recruitment team can't!! | | | |
| So now it’s done on 10:31 - Sep 2 with 1133 views | Steve_M |
| So now it’s done on 10:03 - Sep 2 by chicoazul |
For me it looks like a second poor summer window in a row where we haven’t secured who we really wanted. |
Fairer to say, not everyone we’ve really wanted which was also the case last Summer. Taylor will be a good addition I think and at least one if the three PL loanees will do well once up to speed.
Notably we’ve not cleared out the squad much either. Evans being fourth choice in midfield seems a bit of a waste all round. |  |
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| So now it’s done on 10:33 - Sep 2 with 1121 views | Metal_Hacker |
| So now it’s done on 10:22 - Sep 2 by Naylorsrightboot |
It's taken the manager to find these signings because the expensive recruitment team can't!! |
Or the expensive recruitment team can but strangely enough FFP and extortionate pricing negates any deals.
The market has been super inflated , even the likes of you can see that
Grow up sunshine ffs |  |
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| So now it’s done on 10:34 - Sep 2 with 1116 views | chicoazul |
| So now it’s done on 10:20 - Sep 2 by Naylorsrightboot |
You clearly are. Where are your 3 massive signings with one breaking our transfer record then? You must be very frustrated this morning. Good job its back to school for you next week. |
Like I say, you’re very confused. | |
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| So now it’s done on 10:39 - Sep 2 with 1091 views | chicoazul |
| So now it’s done on 10:31 - Sep 2 by Steve_M |
Fairer to say, not everyone we’ve really wanted which was also the case last Summer. Taylor will be a good addition I think and at least one if the three PL loanees will do well once up to speed.
Notably we’ve not cleared out the squad much either. Evans being fourth choice in midfield seems a bit of a waste all round. |
That’s certainly true that it takes a while.
But my point feeds into yours; we have a lot of bodies - Evans Baggott Humph Freddie for eg - who we wanted to move out on loan or permanent but weren’t able to backfill so have had to retain.
They wanted 3 from Simms Armstrong Hirst and Scarlett and got two. They wanted a CM and to move out Humph on loan; they wanted a CB and to move Baggott out on loan. Didn’t happen.
Don’t get me wrong, my expectations for this season are just consolidation and experience. As you allude to maybe we will be back in for 3 or 4 again in January.
It’s just good to be back where we belong. | |
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| So now it’s done on 10:48 - Sep 2 with 996 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| So now it’s done on 08:48 - Sep 2 by ArnieM |
Great post Horsham and certainly not waffle. My twopenneth is below ( we all see things in our own way so hopefully others will post how they feel and see things without it becoming a slanging match).
Now the dust has settled and I’ve reflected a little I’d say the positives are we have kept our own primary players. Not sure if other clubs came in for any, anyway. But we’ve kept our squad together. So that a positive.
We have also signed Scarlett, Hutchinson, and Williams. Three very good young PL players. McKenna and our coaches will develop them further for sure, so as the season progresses snd they bed in we could see the benefits.
Negatives ( or is it a positive?).
Defensive cover. We didn’t bring in an experienced, championship level CB. We definitely need one in my view. But it looks like we’re keeping Baggott. Personally I’d be looking to drip feed this boy in and develop him further here. He’s probably the best CB at the club - he just lacks experience and that stage of development. If he’s got to learn on the job, do it here! So it could be a massive opportunity for him this season.
The player we have on trial, well he might be the answer but you have to ask why’s he out of contract. Why have clubs not really come in for him (if he’s that good)? He seems to have had a lot of clubs and not very long at each club. ….. I smell a rat tbh. Either injuries, attitude or wages. Probably all of them. The jury’s out and we’ll see what McKenna and Co think of him.
What this Championship window does demonstrate is what Ashton and his team ( and the owners) are now up against …. Premier league ( Sky ) money. Which totally distorts everything. Very average players going for ridiculous prices snd it’s all driven by Sky money and these top 5-6 PL clubs.
Leeds and Leicester transfer dealings in the championship as an example, have just push prices up for everyone else. Take them out of the equation and prices would probably drop.
It’s about time this parachute money was vastly reduced and ended after 1 season. It’d make clubs more responsible when buying players which in turn would dampen down this ridiculous inflation of players prices and wages paid . It’d killing the game. |
For context RE Axel T, He has has had 1 club, Man U. He came through the youth team there. The other clubs have been loans, Villa took him on loan 3 times.
Unfortunately he has had various injuries which is why he is on a free, lots of clubs no doubt wary abiut this, as should we be which is why a trial over the int. break is to my mind very sensible.
He impressed at Luton who I understand couldn't agree a contract, without knowing the terms of that its difficult to know if there were any toys out of the pram but I don't think there are any rats to smell. His attitude doesn't appear to be the issue here and he's another that KM knows well from his time at Utd. His injury record is but fit, he's then a player with all the attributes and a fine ceiling.
Rest of the window.
Hirst is what we all wanted and he's ours.
Slicker, bags of potential and still young.
Hutchinson, well that assist at Reading shows what he can produce, give him time and I think he could be a really good player for us this season.
Williams, could have gone elsewhere, Leeds keen amongst others, again give him time.
The key with all these editions esp Slicker, Williams, Hutch and Axel if he signs is pedigree. City, Utd and Chelsea. That of course doesn't guarantee success this session or in the future but it's certainly the right foundation.
On top of that we have kept those players that were bought for the very purpose of taking us forward in this Fuviosn.
I think it's a 7.5 out of 10 solid, good, not spectacular, but quietly about our busisness. |  |
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| So now it’s done on 11:01 - Sep 2 with 934 views | Steve_M |
| So now it’s done on 10:39 - Sep 2 by chicoazul |
That’s certainly true that it takes a while.
But my point feeds into yours; we have a lot of bodies - Evans Baggott Humph Freddie for eg - who we wanted to move out on loan or permanent but weren’t able to backfill so have had to retain.
They wanted 3 from Simms Armstrong Hirst and Scarlett and got two. They wanted a CM and to move out Humph on loan; they wanted a CB and to move Baggott out on loan. Didn’t happen.
Don’t get me wrong, my expectations for this season are just consolidation and experience. As you allude to maybe we will be back in for 3 or 4 again in January.
It’s just good to be back where we belong. |
Yes, still some complications from the carelessness of two Summers ago. Moving Pigott out another good thing this Summer but an extraordinary waste of money there.
I’m also pleased we’ve not sold all Mizouni, he might be an ideal replacement in central midfield at some point, not too many seasons left for anyone other than Taylor there. And I suppose that in turn means there’s at least some strategic thinking going on which is a nice change from the Evans era. | |
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| So now it’s done on 11:03 - Sep 2 with 924 views | chicoazul |
| So now it’s done on 11:01 - Sep 2 by Steve_M |
Yes, still some complications from the carelessness of two Summers ago. Moving Pigott out another good thing this Summer but an extraordinary waste of money there.
I’m also pleased we’ve not sold all Mizouni, he might be an ideal replacement in central midfield at some point, not too many seasons left for anyone other than Taylor there. And I suppose that in turn means there’s at least some strategic thinking going on which is a nice change from the Evans era. |
Apparently Pig was on 10k a week hahaha | |
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