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Health communism 17:31 - Nov 16 with 6498 viewsNthsuffolkblue

"If I was proposing the creation of the NHS today the Conservatives would call it health communism" Corbyn.

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Health communism on 17:33 - Nov 16 with 3070 viewsbournemouthblue

When a political party and their allies in the media resort to name-calling, it has already lost the argument

Alcohol is the answer but I can't remember the question!
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Health communism on 18:15 - Nov 16 with 3018 viewsNthsuffolkblue

Health communism on 17:33 - Nov 16 by bournemouthblue

When a political party and their allies in the media resort to name-calling, it has already lost the argument


If only that were entirely true.

I am quite sure the "commie Corbyn" slur is a vote winner for the Tories.

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Health communism on 08:46 - Nov 17 with 2909 viewsbournemouthblue

Health communism on 18:15 - Nov 16 by Nthsuffolkblue

If only that were entirely true.

I am quite sure the "commie Corbyn" slur is a vote winner for the Tories.


That's what they are banking on

I'm sure it works to some extent but they are in danger of crying wolf with the continual attacks

Again I'd rather people were scrutinising their record and policies properly

Alcohol is the answer but I can't remember the question!
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Health communism on 08:55 - Nov 17 with 2902 viewsEwan_Oozami

Health communism on 18:15 - Nov 16 by Nthsuffolkblue

If only that were entirely true.

I am quite sure the "commie Corbyn" slur is a vote winner for the Tories.


Of course the irony is that it's the Tories who have allegedly been in bed with the Russians over recent years....

Just one small problem; sell their houses to who, Ben? Fcking Aquaman?
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Health communism on 09:11 - Nov 17 with 2880 viewsBlueNomad

Health communism on 08:55 - Nov 17 by Ewan_Oozami

Of course the irony is that it's the Tories who have allegedly been in bed with the Russians over recent years....


But Russia is not communist, and hasn’t been for nearly thirty years. It is pretty unregulated - just how the Tories would like it if they could get away with it
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 9:12]
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Health communism on 09:16 - Nov 17 with 2868 viewsEwan_Oozami

Health communism on 09:11 - Nov 17 by BlueNomad

But Russia is not communist, and hasn’t been for nearly thirty years. It is pretty unregulated - just how the Tories would like it if they could get away with it
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 9:12]


Indeed, which is why the Tories don't mention the Russians and communism in the same sentence any more, they just use the generic "communism" - unfortunately the electorate of the UK just see that word and remember what it used to mean - that's why it doesn't have any traction with younger voters...
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 9:26]

Just one small problem; sell their houses to who, Ben? Fcking Aquaman?
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Health communism on 09:42 - Nov 17 with 2816 viewscaught-in-limbo

Health communism on 17:33 - Nov 16 by bournemouthblue

When a political party and their allies in the media resort to name-calling, it has already lost the argument


Unfortunately, repetition to the point of saturation will always beat logic when delivered to the masses - until the press is wholly discredited.

#toxic
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Health communism on 09:53 - Nov 17 with 2803 viewshampstead_blue

and if my dad was my mum......

The fact that the NHS can never be fully funded does prove the point that socialism will never work.

Can you imagine the costs of running everything else? We will be bankrupt in a heartbeat with commie corbyn's nationalised program.

I think the fact that Maggie kept the NHS whilst privatising much does show that health is very important.

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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Health communism on 10:25 - Nov 17 with 2779 viewsBlueBadger

Health communism on 09:53 - Nov 17 by hampstead_blue

and if my dad was my mum......

The fact that the NHS can never be fully funded does prove the point that socialism will never work.

Can you imagine the costs of running everything else? We will be bankrupt in a heartbeat with commie corbyn's nationalised program.

I think the fact that Maggie kept the NHS whilst privatising much does show that health is very important.


Ah, the old 'the private sector makes it cheaper' and more efficient' myth.

Circa £4BN a year is wasted on the tier of management dedicated to outsourcing services.

Privatisation has been bad for the NHS in general and disastrous for areas such as mental health, elderly care and children's services in particular with various companies having their own little corners of what are traditionally, very complicated patient groups with multiple needs - there's a massive loss of collaborative working, duplication of paperwork and management and oftentimes those with the most complicated needs end up being poorly served as there's always something which places them outside of the admission criteria of one particular firm's little fiefdom.

If you want a local example of how privatising services fails then look no further than community services round here - in 2012, the contract was awarded to Serco, after they undercut the NHS provider's bid by £10M - the first thing the did was announced across-the-board(frontline and support staff)1-in-10 redundancies and moved their liaison offices(the people you speak to when people are leaving hospital in order to refer them for community services) out of local hospitals into a call centre in Ipswich. The drop in staffing numbers combined with a lack of local knowledge in the call centre meant those left were given unrealistic and unmanageable caseloads (friend of mine was expected once to see people in Haverhill, Long Melford, Stanningfield and Stowmarket in one morning, all before 1130). So more people left, caseloads grew bigger, people fell between the gaps and ended up back in hospital, at a far greater cost than the £10M 'saving'.

And that's before we get onto things like ancillary services - cleaning and domestic services farmed out to the private sector invariably end up with staff numbers being cut and those remaining being retained on poorer terms and conditions than before - this means an reduction in service quality as there's fewer people trying to do more and, as a result of the aforesaid changes to T&C's a more rapid turnover in staff meaning a general loss of efficiency.

The only area you could maybe make a case for the Efficient Private Sector is maybe farming out a very small amount of low-risk elective procedures. And even then, the 'turn 'em over quick' approach is ripe breeding ground for dangerous errors.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 10:58]

I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
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Health communism on 10:26 - Nov 17 with 2764 viewsLeoMuff

Health communism on 09:53 - Nov 17 by hampstead_blue

and if my dad was my mum......

The fact that the NHS can never be fully funded does prove the point that socialism will never work.

Can you imagine the costs of running everything else? We will be bankrupt in a heartbeat with commie corbyn's nationalised program.

I think the fact that Maggie kept the NHS whilst privatising much does show that health is very important.


No health service can be fully funded private or public, there is always more needed, at least Labour would look to properly fund it rather than slash and burn to run it down for a private sell off, ala the conservatives pre election announcement.

The only Muff in Town.
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Health communism on 10:31 - Nov 17 with 2762 viewsMullet

I saw the old "It was a Tory idea" bingo on twitter from no less than Tory MPs themselves. It does the beg the question why they are so keen to run it into the ground and talk it down and take credit for it.

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Health communism on 10:38 - Nov 17 with 2747 viewshampstead_blue

Health communism on 10:25 - Nov 17 by BlueBadger

Ah, the old 'the private sector makes it cheaper' and more efficient' myth.

Circa £4BN a year is wasted on the tier of management dedicated to outsourcing services.

Privatisation has been bad for the NHS in general and disastrous for areas such as mental health, elderly care and children's services in particular with various companies having their own little corners of what are traditionally, very complicated patient groups with multiple needs - there's a massive loss of collaborative working, duplication of paperwork and management and oftentimes those with the most complicated needs end up being poorly served as there's always something which places them outside of the admission criteria of one particular firm's little fiefdom.

If you want a local example of how privatising services fails then look no further than community services round here - in 2012, the contract was awarded to Serco, after they undercut the NHS provider's bid by £10M - the first thing the did was announced across-the-board(frontline and support staff)1-in-10 redundancies and moved their liaison offices(the people you speak to when people are leaving hospital in order to refer them for community services) out of local hospitals into a call centre in Ipswich. The drop in staffing numbers combined with a lack of local knowledge in the call centre meant those left were given unrealistic and unmanageable caseloads (friend of mine was expected once to see people in Haverhill, Long Melford, Stanningfield and Stowmarket in one morning, all before 1130). So more people left, caseloads grew bigger, people fell between the gaps and ended up back in hospital, at a far greater cost than the £10M 'saving'.

And that's before we get onto things like ancillary services - cleaning and domestic services farmed out to the private sector invariably end up with staff numbers being cut and those remaining being retained on poorer terms and conditions than before - this means an reduction in service quality as there's fewer people trying to do more and, as a result of the aforesaid changes to T&C's a more rapid turnover in staff meaning a general loss of efficiency.

The only area you could maybe make a case for the Efficient Private Sector is maybe farming out a very small amount of low-risk elective procedures. And even then, the 'turn 'em over quick' approach is ripe breeding ground for dangerous errors.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 10:58]


you make a great point about contracting on price alone.
There is consensus that the Serco type model doesn't work. We agree and the example you gave is shocking.

My point is slightly away from that example you gave.

Let's put it this way.

Cost 1 to 10. 10 being everything is made of solid gold, 1 being DIY.

The Serco model runs close to 4
The current NHS funding is 5
JC and McCluskey want 7 1/2
Sustainable funding is 6

I'm saying that we cannot afford to fund all of the services JC want' to nationalise to the level they want.
I simply don't believe it is affordable.
At some point you have to accept that the money tree is only so big. The more you stress it the weaker it gets.

I'm all for more investment but it has to have a sensible limit. We as people have to accept that it isn't going to be perfect.
JC the Unions and JM don't have an off button. They will wrap-up more and more crazy ways of accounting as gold when it's rusty nails.

Gordon Brown and the PFI was a joke from the outset. Anyone could see it was an exercise in deceit rather than sound finance.

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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Health communism on 10:45 - Nov 17 with 2744 viewsBlueBadger

Health communism on 10:38 - Nov 17 by hampstead_blue

you make a great point about contracting on price alone.
There is consensus that the Serco type model doesn't work. We agree and the example you gave is shocking.

My point is slightly away from that example you gave.

Let's put it this way.

Cost 1 to 10. 10 being everything is made of solid gold, 1 being DIY.

The Serco model runs close to 4
The current NHS funding is 5
JC and McCluskey want 7 1/2
Sustainable funding is 6

I'm saying that we cannot afford to fund all of the services JC want' to nationalise to the level they want.
I simply don't believe it is affordable.
At some point you have to accept that the money tree is only so big. The more you stress it the weaker it gets.

I'm all for more investment but it has to have a sensible limit. We as people have to accept that it isn't going to be perfect.
JC the Unions and JM don't have an off button. They will wrap-up more and more crazy ways of accounting as gold when it's rusty nails.

Gordon Brown and the PFI was a joke from the outset. Anyone could see it was an exercise in deceit rather than sound finance.


Sure we can. The annual budget deficit runs to around £4billion a year - that's roughly the entire cost of the aforesaid useless tier of management. a penny on income tax brings in around the same again.
Plus, a lot of austerity 'savings' are penny-wise and pound-poor. Cutting social care budgets, for example, saves councils hundreds of thousands and ultimately ends up costing the NHS millions. Closing corporation tax loopholes would bring in a fair few as well.

Joined-up, rather than 'big' or 'small' government is generally the answer. That's usually up-front expensive and long-term affordable.
And if you're worried bout how to fund it here's what we do - revoke Article 50. There's no economic model which makes us better off out of the largest trading bloc in the world and the country is nudging £70billion worse off thanks to the vanity project of some xenophobes, free-market loons and incompetent Tory PMs.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 10:48]

I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
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Health communism on 11:00 - Nov 17 with 2712 viewshampstead_blue

Health communism on 10:45 - Nov 17 by BlueBadger

Sure we can. The annual budget deficit runs to around £4billion a year - that's roughly the entire cost of the aforesaid useless tier of management. a penny on income tax brings in around the same again.
Plus, a lot of austerity 'savings' are penny-wise and pound-poor. Cutting social care budgets, for example, saves councils hundreds of thousands and ultimately ends up costing the NHS millions. Closing corporation tax loopholes would bring in a fair few as well.

Joined-up, rather than 'big' or 'small' government is generally the answer. That's usually up-front expensive and long-term affordable.
And if you're worried bout how to fund it here's what we do - revoke Article 50. There's no economic model which makes us better off out of the largest trading bloc in the world and the country is nudging £70billion worse off thanks to the vanity project of some xenophobes, free-market loons and incompetent Tory PMs.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 10:48]


Great point.

I'm all for an extra 2p on tax. 1p for the NHS, 1p for the Armed Forces.
The Armed Forces have been hammered beyond belief.

You would not believe the shocking state of accomodation. My middle son is in Wales. His heating hasn't been on since last winter. There is hot water sporadically in the block. It's gopping!
That and restoring the final salary pension which I have, should be first on the list.
Then we can buy some sexy stuff and recruit like mad. Most units are stupidly undermanned.
The Welsh Guards can't even mount a guard at Windsor Castle, the Coldstream Guards put a stop on people signing off and transferring!

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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Health communism on 11:14 - Nov 17 with 2689 viewsBlueBadger

Health communism on 11:00 - Nov 17 by hampstead_blue

Great point.

I'm all for an extra 2p on tax. 1p for the NHS, 1p for the Armed Forces.
The Armed Forces have been hammered beyond belief.

You would not believe the shocking state of accomodation. My middle son is in Wales. His heating hasn't been on since last winter. There is hot water sporadically in the block. It's gopping!
That and restoring the final salary pension which I have, should be first on the list.
Then we can buy some sexy stuff and recruit like mad. Most units are stupidly undermanned.
The Welsh Guards can't even mount a guard at Windsor Castle, the Coldstream Guards put a stop on people signing off and transferring!


Interesting you mention military recuitment there. That's been in the hands of Crapita for a few years now and they're trousering a lot of cash for some very substandard work.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/british-army-recruitment-capita-mark-francois-504436

I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
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Health communism on 11:15 - Nov 17 with 2687 viewsDanTheMan

Imagine if libraries didn't exist and someone tried to get those going now.

A place everyone pays for that gives people free access to whatever books they like.

Crazy socialism.

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Health communism on 11:22 - Nov 17 with 2663 viewsGaryCooper

Health communism on 11:00 - Nov 17 by hampstead_blue

Great point.

I'm all for an extra 2p on tax. 1p for the NHS, 1p for the Armed Forces.
The Armed Forces have been hammered beyond belief.

You would not believe the shocking state of accomodation. My middle son is in Wales. His heating hasn't been on since last winter. There is hot water sporadically in the block. It's gopping!
That and restoring the final salary pension which I have, should be first on the list.
Then we can buy some sexy stuff and recruit like mad. Most units are stupidly undermanned.
The Welsh Guards can't even mount a guard at Windsor Castle, the Coldstream Guards put a stop on people signing off and transferring!


The armed forces easily get the worst deal in the public sector, elite troops housed in accommodation with no heating or locks on doors, frequent thieving by contract cleaners.
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Health communism on 11:22 - Nov 17 with 2664 viewstractordownsouth

Health communism on 09:53 - Nov 17 by hampstead_blue

and if my dad was my mum......

The fact that the NHS can never be fully funded does prove the point that socialism will never work.

Can you imagine the costs of running everything else? We will be bankrupt in a heartbeat with commie corbyn's nationalised program.

I think the fact that Maggie kept the NHS whilst privatising much does show that health is very important.


https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/8

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Health communism on 11:24 - Nov 17 with 2659 viewstractordownsouth

Health communism on 10:25 - Nov 17 by BlueBadger

Ah, the old 'the private sector makes it cheaper' and more efficient' myth.

Circa £4BN a year is wasted on the tier of management dedicated to outsourcing services.

Privatisation has been bad for the NHS in general and disastrous for areas such as mental health, elderly care and children's services in particular with various companies having their own little corners of what are traditionally, very complicated patient groups with multiple needs - there's a massive loss of collaborative working, duplication of paperwork and management and oftentimes those with the most complicated needs end up being poorly served as there's always something which places them outside of the admission criteria of one particular firm's little fiefdom.

If you want a local example of how privatising services fails then look no further than community services round here - in 2012, the contract was awarded to Serco, after they undercut the NHS provider's bid by £10M - the first thing the did was announced across-the-board(frontline and support staff)1-in-10 redundancies and moved their liaison offices(the people you speak to when people are leaving hospital in order to refer them for community services) out of local hospitals into a call centre in Ipswich. The drop in staffing numbers combined with a lack of local knowledge in the call centre meant those left were given unrealistic and unmanageable caseloads (friend of mine was expected once to see people in Haverhill, Long Melford, Stanningfield and Stowmarket in one morning, all before 1130). So more people left, caseloads grew bigger, people fell between the gaps and ended up back in hospital, at a far greater cost than the £10M 'saving'.

And that's before we get onto things like ancillary services - cleaning and domestic services farmed out to the private sector invariably end up with staff numbers being cut and those remaining being retained on poorer terms and conditions than before - this means an reduction in service quality as there's fewer people trying to do more and, as a result of the aforesaid changes to T&C's a more rapid turnover in staff meaning a general loss of efficiency.

The only area you could maybe make a case for the Efficient Private Sector is maybe farming out a very small amount of low-risk elective procedures. And even then, the 'turn 'em over quick' approach is ripe breeding ground for dangerous errors.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 10:58]


Yeah but we don't listen to experts and people like you who've actually worked in the NHS. An ex city banker and a bloke who studied Greek Poetry at Uni reckon it'll be alright so there's nowt to worry about.

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Health communism on 11:31 - Nov 17 with 2642 viewsBlueBadger

Health communism on 10:31 - Nov 17 by Mullet

I saw the old "It was a Tory idea" bingo on twitter from no less than Tory MPs themselves. It does the beg the question why they are so keen to run it into the ground and talk it down and take credit for it.


Not to mention why they opposed its creation so bitterly as well.

I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
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Health communism on 12:25 - Nov 17 with 2591 viewshampstead_blue

Health communism on 11:14 - Nov 17 by BlueBadger

Interesting you mention military recuitment there. That's been in the hands of Crapita for a few years now and they're trousering a lot of cash for some very substandard work.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/british-army-recruitment-capita-mark-francois-504436


My old Cpl works as a Capita recruiter in Andover. He gets paid £20k pa and has no time to spend with candidates.
It's all over the phone and it pants.

There is a reason why the RN and RAF don't allow Capita near them. However the RN do use Teleperformance in Bristol - shocking business, to do a lot of tele work for them.

We need real squaddies on the high street telling the kids how it is and what they can expect.

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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Health communism on 12:55 - Nov 17 with 2552 viewssolemio

Health communism on 10:26 - Nov 17 by LeoMuff

No health service can be fully funded private or public, there is always more needed, at least Labour would look to properly fund it rather than slash and burn to run it down for a private sell off, ala the conservatives pre election announcement.


If everybody ate sensibly, drank sensibly and took a good amount of exercise the NHS would be adequately funded.

I've noticed that they don't!
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Health communism on 13:04 - Nov 17 with 2534 viewsBloomBlue

Health communism on 10:25 - Nov 17 by BlueBadger

Ah, the old 'the private sector makes it cheaper' and more efficient' myth.

Circa £4BN a year is wasted on the tier of management dedicated to outsourcing services.

Privatisation has been bad for the NHS in general and disastrous for areas such as mental health, elderly care and children's services in particular with various companies having their own little corners of what are traditionally, very complicated patient groups with multiple needs - there's a massive loss of collaborative working, duplication of paperwork and management and oftentimes those with the most complicated needs end up being poorly served as there's always something which places them outside of the admission criteria of one particular firm's little fiefdom.

If you want a local example of how privatising services fails then look no further than community services round here - in 2012, the contract was awarded to Serco, after they undercut the NHS provider's bid by £10M - the first thing the did was announced across-the-board(frontline and support staff)1-in-10 redundancies and moved their liaison offices(the people you speak to when people are leaving hospital in order to refer them for community services) out of local hospitals into a call centre in Ipswich. The drop in staffing numbers combined with a lack of local knowledge in the call centre meant those left were given unrealistic and unmanageable caseloads (friend of mine was expected once to see people in Haverhill, Long Melford, Stanningfield and Stowmarket in one morning, all before 1130). So more people left, caseloads grew bigger, people fell between the gaps and ended up back in hospital, at a far greater cost than the £10M 'saving'.

And that's before we get onto things like ancillary services - cleaning and domestic services farmed out to the private sector invariably end up with staff numbers being cut and those remaining being retained on poorer terms and conditions than before - this means an reduction in service quality as there's fewer people trying to do more and, as a result of the aforesaid changes to T&C's a more rapid turnover in staff meaning a general loss of efficiency.

The only area you could maybe make a case for the Efficient Private Sector is maybe farming out a very small amount of low-risk elective procedures. And even then, the 'turn 'em over quick' approach is ripe breeding ground for dangerous errors.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 10:58]


Ah the old nationalising will do it cheaper myth. Bit like the nationalising of Openreach how are they going to fund it, by taxing private tech companies or the irony of having to tax private companies to claim nationalising can do it cheaper. If nationalising can do it cheaper why dont they prove by not taxing private companies to fund it.

Also remember when they invented the NHS GPs refused to be part of it, GPs have been private since the start of the NHS they have contracts with the NHS. The NHS has been part private from the start.
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Health communism on 13:06 - Nov 17 with 2531 viewsWeWereZombies

Health communism on 12:55 - Nov 17 by solemio

If everybody ate sensibly, drank sensibly and took a good amount of exercise the NHS would be adequately funded.

I've noticed that they don't!


If you are going to be tough on drink you will need to be tough on the causes of drink...

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Health communism on 13:10 - Nov 17 with 2531 viewsBlueBadger

Health communism on 13:04 - Nov 17 by BloomBlue

Ah the old nationalising will do it cheaper myth. Bit like the nationalising of Openreach how are they going to fund it, by taxing private tech companies or the irony of having to tax private companies to claim nationalising can do it cheaper. If nationalising can do it cheaper why dont they prove by not taxing private companies to fund it.

Also remember when they invented the NHS GPs refused to be part of it, GPs have been private since the start of the NHS they have contracts with the NHS. The NHS has been part private from the start.


GPs operate as franchisers, rather than true private providers. To all intents and purposes they're NHS employees in all but name.
And the UK taxpayer presently pays more into the railways than we ever did under British Rail. For very little real improvement in service.

The only rail franchises which return a profit to the treasury are the state-run ones. The rest run on massive government handouts.

Presently, any profits from the utilities goes to shareholders, that's a lot that could be sitting in the treasure instead.
And if privatising your utilities offers such a good deal why hasn't there been more uptake across the continent?
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 13:24]

I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
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