| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding 22:34 - Sep 20 with 7739 views | Swansea_Blue |
Excluding the ongoing antisemitism row (plenty of threads on that), in the last 36 hours alone they’ve:
- had a row over labour youth group, and disbanded it
- attacked the hugely experienced Harriet Harmon and are lining up to oust her at the next GE, because she’s standing as a candidate to be the next Speaker
- and now have tried to oust Tom Watson despite him being labour through and through https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100
What the eff are they doing over there? They’ve got a ruling party scoring the biggest own goals in decades or a Century+, literally, yet they don’t seem able to focus on trying to beat them. It’s thoroughly bizarre. |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:53 - Sep 21 with 977 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:48 - Sep 21 by pointofblue |
I'm not saying a socialist party is defunct in this day and age. I do think, however, they need to have firmer policies and stronger leadership than they currently have. This situation is similar to the 1980s, where all sides of the Labour Party were too busy navel gazing and fighting amongst themselves rather than opposing the Government. |
Agreed they need to stop fighting. But who have been the ones starting the fights and keeping them going?
Watson has been appallingly divisive. I was hoping he would resign after the Operation Midland mess but if he isn't then his tenure as deputy leader can't just go on in the same way for another election. |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:59 - Sep 21 with 966 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:52 - Sep 21 by Guthrum |
Problem is, like it or not, this election isn't going to be about socialism, austerity or even economic/social policy at all. It's going to be about Brexit. An ersatz referendum on that one topic. The Conservatives and LibDems have made sure of that. I don't like it, but there we are. It would take superhuman strength to wrest the debate round to anything else without being drowned out.
The Conservatives, like Labour, are riven on this topic, but the clique currently running the former have manged to come up with a set of simplistic promises which will go into the manifesto*. By trying to be nuanced and reflect the divided feelings of their supporters, Labour just come across as weak (especially in the current UK media environment). And "irrelevant" when they try talking about other subjects.
* I don't think this will pay off for them, either. The position is too hard-line. |
Maybe there is scope for the middle ground of Renegotiate (May did an awful job from start to finish whether she was caught up in the red lines from her own party or not). And then probably campaign to Remain after that.
And I wouldn't be surprised if that starts to get some traction given the impossibility of the LibDem's and Conservatives approach. It's just too late with far too much damage for their simplistic but unilateral approaches now. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:00 - Sep 21 with 964 views | lowhouseblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:47 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
The two are the same thing. In the current sordid political and media climate we end up with a government just like Johnson's. And we deserve it.
With your Corbyn paranoia, your Brexit Party leanings and your dishonesty, it'll suit you down to the ground. |
'the two are the same thing'. so in your mind it's simply corbyn or the tories, and you're 'just as uncomfortable' with any alternative to corbyn as you are with 5 more years of boris.
what a self-centred and arrogant world view. if you can't have corbyn then boris is no worse to you than any alternative. i know that people now go through an extended adolescence, but wow. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:00 - Sep 21 with 964 views | Guthrum |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:15 - Sep 21 by lowhouseblue |
you win elections by having broad support. a sect defining the party so narrowly that it doesn't even include the deputy leader guarantees defeat.
you are right that momentum = militant. the trot philosophy is that in the short-term (which to these people means decades) controlling the party machine matters infinitely more than winning elections. that explains this stupidity.
they are now focused on what happens when corbyn losses badly in the coming election - they want to pre-emptively get rid of alternatives to corbyn or son/daughter of corbyn so as to retain their grip on the party after they lose another election. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 9:16]
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Not sure that's quite true. It's more the case that they believe by presenting what they regard as a truly socialist position, the election will inevitably be won (unless they are thwarted by the dastardly forces of capitalism). Some of these people (whom I have spoken to) still believe in historical determinism, Marx's theory that events will inevitably and, eventually, unstoppably march towards a socialist outcome (being an product of 19th century ideas on evolution and the upward trend of history). |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:01 - Sep 21 with 957 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:00 - Sep 21 by lowhouseblue |
'the two are the same thing'. so in your mind it's simply corbyn or the tories, and you're 'just as uncomfortable' with any alternative to corbyn as you are with 5 more years of boris.
what a self-centred and arrogant world view. if you can't have corbyn then boris is no worse to you than any alternative. i know that people now go through an extended adolescence, but wow. |
Hehe.
Nice of you to give me an example of your dishonesty straightaway. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:03 - Sep 21 with 942 views | lowhouseblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:00 - Sep 21 by Guthrum |
Not sure that's quite true. It's more the case that they believe by presenting what they regard as a truly socialist position, the election will inevitably be won (unless they are thwarted by the dastardly forces of capitalism). Some of these people (whom I have spoken to) still believe in historical determinism, Marx's theory that events will inevitably and, eventually, unstoppably march towards a socialist outcome (being an product of 19th century ideas on evolution and the upward trend of history). |
there's undoubtedly a variety of fantastical views within momentum. but the key movers behind momentum are good old fashioned trots who want to control the party machine and wait it out until there's some crisis that finally lets them into power. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:06 - Sep 21 with 935 views | pointofblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:03 - Sep 21 by lowhouseblue |
there's undoubtedly a variety of fantastical views within momentum. but the key movers behind momentum are good old fashioned trots who want to control the party machine and wait it out until there's some crisis that finally lets them into power. |
Though if they can't take advantage of the current crisis... |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:07 - Sep 21 with 934 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:00 - Sep 21 by Guthrum |
Not sure that's quite true. It's more the case that they believe by presenting what they regard as a truly socialist position, the election will inevitably be won (unless they are thwarted by the dastardly forces of capitalism). Some of these people (whom I have spoken to) still believe in historical determinism, Marx's theory that events will inevitably and, eventually, unstoppably march towards a socialist outcome (being an product of 19th century ideas on evolution and the upward trend of history). |
They might not have moved on but the world certainly has. I don't think the vast majority of people in Momentum believe that capitalism needs to be replaced with socialism. But more that it needs to be reintroduced to provide the balance, regulation, protection of worker rights, environment etc.that capitalism needs in a modern European country.
Hardly radical stuff even if it may attract some radicals as the closest mainstream solution. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:10 - Sep 21 with 928 views | Guthrum |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:59 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Maybe there is scope for the middle ground of Renegotiate (May did an awful job from start to finish whether she was caught up in the red lines from her own party or not). And then probably campaign to Remain after that.
And I wouldn't be surprised if that starts to get some traction given the impossibility of the LibDem's and Conservatives approach. It's just too late with far too much damage for their simplistic but unilateral approaches now. |
That is really the only remaining ground for Labour to occupy,the Conservatives having siezed the hard Leave and the LibDems the hard Remain positions.
It's not necessarily a weak position, but it is a tricky one, being the least simplistic. They have to avoid the fantasy dealmaking beloved of the current Prime Minister. Do they include another referendum and on what question(s)? What exactly does their desired final outcome look like? Lots of things they need to sort out.
Also, they really have to get on with it. Tories and LibDems have gained a considerable head start. Plus they will need a lot of dynamism (that's also the best way to suppress internal dissent, by the leader being the loudest voice and dominating all debate). | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:13 - Sep 21 with 922 views | Darth_Koont |
And I've just seen Watson refer to it as a "sectarian attack" ... what a c@Ck. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:16 - Sep 21 with 919 views | Guthrum |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:07 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
They might not have moved on but the world certainly has. I don't think the vast majority of people in Momentum believe that capitalism needs to be replaced with socialism. But more that it needs to be reintroduced to provide the balance, regulation, protection of worker rights, environment etc.that capitalism needs in a modern European country.
Hardly radical stuff even if it may attract some radicals as the closest mainstream solution. |
I don't tend to think the position of Corbyn's Labour Party has been that extreme. Many of their policies are quite popular across the board (ending austerity, better regulation, even nationalisation of some infrastructure given the shambles things like the railways are in). Probably less so even than under Kinnock in the '80s. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:17 - Sep 21 with 917 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:10 - Sep 21 by Guthrum |
That is really the only remaining ground for Labour to occupy,the Conservatives having siezed the hard Leave and the LibDems the hard Remain positions.
It's not necessarily a weak position, but it is a tricky one, being the least simplistic. They have to avoid the fantasy dealmaking beloved of the current Prime Minister. Do they include another referendum and on what question(s)? What exactly does their desired final outcome look like? Lots of things they need to sort out.
Also, they really have to get on with it. Tories and LibDems have gained a considerable head start. Plus they will need a lot of dynamism (that's also the best way to suppress internal dissent, by the leader being the loudest voice and dominating all debate). |
Agree with all that. Although I hope we can just assure ourselves of getting past the 31 October without a No Deal disaster.
Electioneering around this tricky constitutional issue and the huge risks themselves doesn't seem like a good idea. Our politicians don't know what they're doing at the best of times. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:39 - Sep 21 with 900 views | GlasgowBlue |
This is a preemptive move to get Watson out as de facto leader when Corbyn loses the next election. Currently the deputy becomes caretaker leader. By abolishing the position they control the agenda for selecting Corbyn’s successor.
Expect Rebecca Wrong Daily to get lots of airtime at conference. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 10:43]
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:11 - Sep 21 with 874 views | Swansea_Blue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:53 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Agreed they need to stop fighting. But who have been the ones starting the fights and keeping them going?
Watson has been appallingly divisive. I was hoping he would resign after the Operation Midland mess but if he isn't then his tenure as deputy leader can't just go on in the same way for another election. |
It's interesting to hear your viewpoint on all of this. Unfortunately for Labour from the broad electorate's perspective Corbyn is the divisive figure. He splits opinion like no other labour leader I can remember. So you seem stuck between a rock and a hard place: a split party internally with an executive trying to wrestle control towards the 'side' which is less likely to have broad appeal (but may well have policies we need to see a lot more of, but will struggle to win a GE on those and Corbyn at this time when Brexit will dominate the campaign).
I'm not saying it's not doable (as the gains in 2017 show). And ironically it was Corbyn being given a free platform that helped to gain traction, so that does contract my views above and does give a Corbyn-led Labour some hope.
Gut instinct for me is that though is that Tom Watson's approach could be a stronger draw for the electorate. He's a communicator and is always making a stand against the idiocy of the Tories, whereas Corbyn remains silent or non-committal when he does talk. That could all change once campaign starts again though.
I don't have a strong view either way; it's actually quite interesting watching the powerplay work out. Although it would be nicer if a united Labour could take on the Tories. 'Anyone But the Tories' has to be the priority after what they've done to this country (again). | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:33 - Sep 21 with 852 views | Pinewoodblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 10:39 - Sep 21 by GlasgowBlue |
This is a preemptive move to get Watson out as de facto leader when Corbyn loses the next election. Currently the deputy becomes caretaker leader. By abolishing the position they control the agenda for selecting Corbyn’s successor.
Expect Rebecca Wrong Daily to get lots of airtime at conference. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 10:43]
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Labour Congress and membership are more to the left than MPs and traditional Labour voters. Difficult to see how they could win an election. |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:35 - Sep 21 with 849 views | GlasgowBlue |
Motion withdrawn. Well that backfired spectacularly. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:38 - Sep 21 with 843 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:11 - Sep 21 by Swansea_Blue |
It's interesting to hear your viewpoint on all of this. Unfortunately for Labour from the broad electorate's perspective Corbyn is the divisive figure. He splits opinion like no other labour leader I can remember. So you seem stuck between a rock and a hard place: a split party internally with an executive trying to wrestle control towards the 'side' which is less likely to have broad appeal (but may well have policies we need to see a lot more of, but will struggle to win a GE on those and Corbyn at this time when Brexit will dominate the campaign).
I'm not saying it's not doable (as the gains in 2017 show). And ironically it was Corbyn being given a free platform that helped to gain traction, so that does contract my views above and does give a Corbyn-led Labour some hope.
Gut instinct for me is that though is that Tom Watson's approach could be a stronger draw for the electorate. He's a communicator and is always making a stand against the idiocy of the Tories, whereas Corbyn remains silent or non-committal when he does talk. That could all change once campaign starts again though.
I don't have a strong view either way; it's actually quite interesting watching the powerplay work out. Although it would be nicer if a united Labour could take on the Tories. 'Anyone But the Tories' has to be the priority after what they've done to this country (again). |
Unfortunately I think Watson has done more damage and divided the party when he could have been bringing it together. If he's not interested in that then his own opposition to the Tories is effectively just lip service.
The perspective that this division is coming from Corbyn, anyone else in the Shadow Cabinet or even Momentum just reflects the popular narrative.But it doesn't really add up - in fact have they started any of the fights with Watson, Mann, Umunna, Berger, Hodge et al?
Agree re: your last line. Stopping the Tories and the direction they are moving in is a priority for this country. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 11:41]
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:45 - Sep 21 with 833 views | Swansea_Blue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:38 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Unfortunately I think Watson has done more damage and divided the party when he could have been bringing it together. If he's not interested in that then his own opposition to the Tories is effectively just lip service.
The perspective that this division is coming from Corbyn, anyone else in the Shadow Cabinet or even Momentum just reflects the popular narrative.But it doesn't really add up - in fact have they started any of the fights with Watson, Mann, Umunna, Berger, Hodge et al?
Agree re: your last line. Stopping the Tories and the direction they are moving in is a priority for this country. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 11:41]
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He certainly doesn't seem popular with some! Is this all a powerplay for who replaces Corbyn?
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:49 - Sep 21 with 824 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:45 - Sep 21 by Swansea_Blue |
He certainly doesn't seem popular with some! Is this all a powerplay for who replaces Corbyn?
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Not sure. Can the acting leader change the rules? I think they just want rid of Watson because he's doing the Tories' work for them.
And "Hard left" pffft
When did we get so politically illiterate? | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:03 - Sep 21 with 810 views | Ryorry |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:42 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Momentum isn't far left. |
No, it's extremely far left.
Edit: by which I meant momentum are. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 12:17]
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:04 - Sep 21 with 806 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:03 - Sep 21 by Ryorry |
No, it's extremely far left.
Edit: by which I meant momentum are. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 12:17]
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Sigh. If you say so. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:09 - Sep 21 with 792 views | giant_stow |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:04 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Sigh. If you say so. |
How would you feel if corbyn's Labour lost the election, having been given such an open goal? Would you accept some kind of compromise with the dreaded, hated 'Centrists' was called for or plow on regardless and wait another 4 years for the electorate to catch up with your thinking? |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:11 - Sep 21 with 788 views | Ryorry |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:53 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Agreed they need to stop fighting. But who have been the ones starting the fights and keeping them going?
Watson has been appallingly divisive. I was hoping he would resign after the Operation Midland mess but if he isn't then his tenure as deputy leader can't just go on in the same way for another election. |
"Mummy, Mummy, he started it"
No I didn't, Mummy, Mummy, she started it"
"Shut up both of you or I'll knock your heads together* and vote for someone else".
*Not advocating this obviously! just something that was often said to kids several decades ago). | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:13 - Sep 21 with 782 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:09 - Sep 21 by giant_stow |
How would you feel if corbyn's Labour lost the election, having been given such an open goal? Would you accept some kind of compromise with the dreaded, hated 'Centrists' was called for or plow on regardless and wait another 4 years for the electorate to catch up with your thinking? |
The compromise is that the centrists need to get onside and help provide an opposition rather than doing the opposite and sniping at every opportunity.
I don't see anyone being threatened for deselection because of their politics but rather their behaviour. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 12:16 - Sep 21 with 774 views | Ryorry |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 11:11 - Sep 21 by Swansea_Blue |
It's interesting to hear your viewpoint on all of this. Unfortunately for Labour from the broad electorate's perspective Corbyn is the divisive figure. He splits opinion like no other labour leader I can remember. So you seem stuck between a rock and a hard place: a split party internally with an executive trying to wrestle control towards the 'side' which is less likely to have broad appeal (but may well have policies we need to see a lot more of, but will struggle to win a GE on those and Corbyn at this time when Brexit will dominate the campaign).
I'm not saying it's not doable (as the gains in 2017 show). And ironically it was Corbyn being given a free platform that helped to gain traction, so that does contract my views above and does give a Corbyn-led Labour some hope.
Gut instinct for me is that though is that Tom Watson's approach could be a stronger draw for the electorate. He's a communicator and is always making a stand against the idiocy of the Tories, whereas Corbyn remains silent or non-committal when he does talk. That could all change once campaign starts again though.
I don't have a strong view either way; it's actually quite interesting watching the powerplay work out. Although it would be nicer if a united Labour could take on the Tories. 'Anyone But the Tories' has to be the priority after what they've done to this country (again). |
"Gut instinct for me is that though is that Tom Watson's approach could be a stronger draw for the electorate. He's a communicator and is always making a stand against the idiocy of the Tories, whereas Corbyn remains silent or non-committal when he does talk."
Exacty this! [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 12:19]
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