| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding 22:34 - Sep 20 with 7749 views | Swansea_Blue |
Excluding the ongoing antisemitism row (plenty of threads on that), in the last 36 hours alone they’ve:
- had a row over labour youth group, and disbanded it
- attacked the hugely experienced Harriet Harmon and are lining up to oust her at the next GE, because she’s standing as a candidate to be the next Speaker
- and now have tried to oust Tom Watson despite him being labour through and through https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100
What the eff are they doing over there? They’ve got a ruling party scoring the biggest own goals in decades or a Century+, literally, yet they don’t seem able to focus on trying to beat them. It’s thoroughly bizarre. |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:40 - Sep 21 with 1159 views | BloomBlue |
It's momentum trying to control the Labour party, they should rename it the Momentum party. Momentum is so far left its unreal, they are a form of communism rather than socialism.
That's the sad part about Labour, its values were built on socialism but first Blair started destroying it with doing anything just to make himself rich and then they let Momentum move it to the far left.
This Country needs a socialist party. |  | | |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:41 - Sep 21 with 1157 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:32 - Sep 21 by artsbossbeard |
The "creeping right" would indicate that it's some shadowy undercurrent where it's actually an "in your face" xenophobic free for all from some quarters.
I agree with your sentiment. |
Yes, sorry.
I meant more that we as a country are creeping right. An appeal to our current centrists who can call themselves Conservatives one week and Lib Dem the next isn't going to slow that down. If anything it cements it as it'll just be centrists fighting for ground with the populist loons. |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:42 - Sep 21 with 1153 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:40 - Sep 21 by BloomBlue |
It's momentum trying to control the Labour party, they should rename it the Momentum party. Momentum is so far left its unreal, they are a form of communism rather than socialism.
That's the sad part about Labour, its values were built on socialism but first Blair started destroying it with doing anything just to make himself rich and then they let Momentum move it to the far left.
This Country needs a socialist party. |
Momentum isn't far left. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:47 - Sep 21 with 1138 views | pointofblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:42 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Momentum isn't far left. |
It feels like a dictatorial wing, very much like the ERG which has quietly taken over the Conservatives, particularly since the 2017 election - do what we say or else. Strong leaders control their party via negotiation, compromise and explanation rather than wielding the axe at any given opportunity. |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:51 - Sep 21 with 1136 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:47 - Sep 21 by pointofblue |
It feels like a dictatorial wing, very much like the ERG which has quietly taken over the Conservatives, particularly since the 2017 election - do what we say or else. Strong leaders control their party via negotiation, compromise and explanation rather than wielding the axe at any given opportunity. |
I think the factionalism started from the right of the party. They are certainly the ones fighting to keep control of the party and now regain it.
Which wing is more undemocratic in that scenario? | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:59 - Sep 21 with 1122 views | itfcjoe |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:36 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Actually, I think it's as simple as seeing that New Labour and the continuation of that position wasn't enough of an opposition. Miliband was losing ground.
And not what the country needs to drag itself back from the path we've been on that has taken us to a ridiculous Brexit and rabid populist nonsense. We need a reinjection of socialist values in our politics. The kind that made the UK a better place to live in the post-War years. |
You’d think that any sensible leader would take parts from all across the broad range of a party, as it needs to win an election, narrowing its message down doesn’t pick up voters and it needs to win an election |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:06 - Sep 21 with 1106 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:13 - Sep 21 by Dubtractor |
Undoubtedly the press has been much harsher on Corbyn, pretty relentless from day one, but Corbyn/momentum really don't help themselves with things like this attempt to oust Watson.
To be honest, it bloody annoys me, as Labour should be utterly wiping the floor with the tories at the moment. I like what Corbyn stands for overall, but he spent his career as a back bencher sniping and disagreeing yet anyone does the same now and momentum are straight onto them. Any political party HAS to be a broad church, there has to be disagreement and compromise. |
And a deputy not constantly manoeuvring with an eye to future leadership? |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:07 - Sep 21 with 1105 views | pointofblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:51 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
I think the factionalism started from the right of the party. They are certainly the ones fighting to keep control of the party and now regain it.
Which wing is more undemocratic in that scenario? |
Corbyn's lack of leadership and direction is resulting in a vacuum that others are trying to fill - the right of the party aren't the only ones trying to impose themselves as McDonnell has even spoken up against him on occasions.
I'm not necessarily saying there isn't a place for socialist policies within British politics but Corbyn isn't the man to lead it and Momentum isn't the group to support it. They've been a protest wing for so long they have no idea how to lead. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:07 - Sep 21 with 1108 views | Guthrum |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:28 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Haven't looked too closely at what the other stuff is all about. But it's certainly time to get Watsom out the way. He and others on the Labour right have been blatantly obstructing and playing politics over the past few years, undermining the leadership and weakening the opposition to the Tory sh!tshow at almost every step.
I'm more and more convinced we need to get rid of these useless party politicians and actually fight the creeping right in this country with principles and policies. Call me old-fashioned and unrealistic. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 8:43]
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Perhaps Watson et al think their approach stands a better chance of winning a General Election than Corbyn's - and maybe they're right. After all, in 2017, faced with a shambolic Tory campaign and with other policy issues not yet completely drowned out by the roar of Brexit, they still failed to come even close to a majority.
Now, with one item dominating the agenda to the exclusion of all else, the Corbyn faction's stubborn refusal to take a firm position on that is very likely to cost them seats at a time when others have taken hard-line, but clearly defined ones. The same falling between two stools which rendered the Liberals irrelevant in the Capitalism/Socialism dichotomy of the 1930s to '70s.
Which would be a shame, given their desire to tackle austerity, with all the damage that's doing.
The other problem is that, like their Conservative rivals, the Labour Party is essentially an alliance between different and quite disparate groups on what is broadly defined as "the Left". Attempts to impose an authoritarian, monolithic orthodoxy are more likely to create division and weaken the party than otherwise. See the factional infighting of the 1980s for an example (Smith and Blair did not repair that, but instead positioned the party where it could draw in considerable support from outside its usual bounds). Momentum themselves are, after all, the direct descendants of the Militant Tendency who lost the battle in the late '80s, come back for another round. |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:13 - Sep 21 with 1090 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 08:59 - Sep 21 by itfcjoe |
You’d think that any sensible leader would take parts from all across the broad range of a party, as it needs to win an election, narrowing its message down doesn’t pick up voters and it needs to win an election |
You'd think the Labour right would have done that long before and not tried to silence the voice of the left over the years.
Because of that, in 2015 they were utterly decimated in Scotland and were losing ground in their former industrial heartlands elsewhere - paving the way for Brexit rhetoric there incidentally. So Labour was becoming increasingly irrelevant as an opposition before Corbyn got in and they started talking like a social democratic party again, let alone a socialist one. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:14 - Sep 21 with 1088 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:07 - Sep 21 by Guthrum |
Perhaps Watson et al think their approach stands a better chance of winning a General Election than Corbyn's - and maybe they're right. After all, in 2017, faced with a shambolic Tory campaign and with other policy issues not yet completely drowned out by the roar of Brexit, they still failed to come even close to a majority.
Now, with one item dominating the agenda to the exclusion of all else, the Corbyn faction's stubborn refusal to take a firm position on that is very likely to cost them seats at a time when others have taken hard-line, but clearly defined ones. The same falling between two stools which rendered the Liberals irrelevant in the Capitalism/Socialism dichotomy of the 1930s to '70s.
Which would be a shame, given their desire to tackle austerity, with all the damage that's doing.
The other problem is that, like their Conservative rivals, the Labour Party is essentially an alliance between different and quite disparate groups on what is broadly defined as "the Left". Attempts to impose an authoritarian, monolithic orthodoxy are more likely to create division and weaken the party than otherwise. See the factional infighting of the 1980s for an example (Smith and Blair did not repair that, but instead positioned the party where it could draw in considerable support from outside its usual bounds). Momentum themselves are, after all, the direct descendants of the Militant Tendency who lost the battle in the late '80s, come back for another round. |
I'm sure they do. I'd just ask them to consider why they lost in 2010 and 2015 yet regained a lot of that ground in 2017 even while hammering their own leader. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:15 - Sep 21 with 1086 views | lowhouseblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:07 - Sep 21 by Guthrum |
Perhaps Watson et al think their approach stands a better chance of winning a General Election than Corbyn's - and maybe they're right. After all, in 2017, faced with a shambolic Tory campaign and with other policy issues not yet completely drowned out by the roar of Brexit, they still failed to come even close to a majority.
Now, with one item dominating the agenda to the exclusion of all else, the Corbyn faction's stubborn refusal to take a firm position on that is very likely to cost them seats at a time when others have taken hard-line, but clearly defined ones. The same falling between two stools which rendered the Liberals irrelevant in the Capitalism/Socialism dichotomy of the 1930s to '70s.
Which would be a shame, given their desire to tackle austerity, with all the damage that's doing.
The other problem is that, like their Conservative rivals, the Labour Party is essentially an alliance between different and quite disparate groups on what is broadly defined as "the Left". Attempts to impose an authoritarian, monolithic orthodoxy are more likely to create division and weaken the party than otherwise. See the factional infighting of the 1980s for an example (Smith and Blair did not repair that, but instead positioned the party where it could draw in considerable support from outside its usual bounds). Momentum themselves are, after all, the direct descendants of the Militant Tendency who lost the battle in the late '80s, come back for another round. |
you win elections by having broad support. a sect defining the party so narrowly that it doesn't even include the deputy leader guarantees defeat.
you are right that momentum = militant. the trot philosophy is that in the short-term (which to these people means decades) controlling the party machine matters infinitely more than winning elections. that explains this stupidity.
they are now focused on what happens when corbyn losses badly in the coming election - they want to pre-emptively get rid of alternatives to corbyn or son/daughter of corbyn so as to retain their grip on the party after they lose another election. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 9:16]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:16 - Sep 21 with 1083 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:07 - Sep 21 by pointofblue |
Corbyn's lack of leadership and direction is resulting in a vacuum that others are trying to fill - the right of the party aren't the only ones trying to impose themselves as McDonnell has even spoken up against him on occasions.
I'm not necessarily saying there isn't a place for socialist policies within British politics but Corbyn isn't the man to lead it and Momentum isn't the group to support it. They've been a protest wing for so long they have no idea how to lead. |
Momentum has only ever been supporting the leader, that's why they were set up in 2015.
I think you're getting them confused with Militant. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:21 - Sep 21 with 1071 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:15 - Sep 21 by lowhouseblue |
you win elections by having broad support. a sect defining the party so narrowly that it doesn't even include the deputy leader guarantees defeat.
you are right that momentum = militant. the trot philosophy is that in the short-term (which to these people means decades) controlling the party machine matters infinitely more than winning elections. that explains this stupidity.
they are now focused on what happens when corbyn losses badly in the coming election - they want to pre-emptively get rid of alternatives to corbyn or son/daughter of corbyn so as to retain their grip on the party after they lose another election. [Post edited 21 Sep 2019 9:16]
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Why is the politics Corbyn and his supporters stand for defined as a sect whereas elsewhere in Europe it's referred to as sensible government - in the Nordic countries it's even referred to as the status quo.
You lost your version of Labour that wasn't a broad church at all. Time to move out the way for someone else to do a better job. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:26 - Sep 21 with 1053 views | lowhouseblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:21 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Why is the politics Corbyn and his supporters stand for defined as a sect whereas elsewhere in Europe it's referred to as sensible government - in the Nordic countries it's even referred to as the status quo.
You lost your version of Labour that wasn't a broad church at all. Time to move out the way for someone else to do a better job. |
you're seeing today why it's defined as a sect. if this is your idea of a 'better job' it rather questions what you are really trying to achieve. your 'better job' involves 3rd in the polls, ten points behind the tories, having no policy on brexit, being investigated by the ehrc, and stumbling from crisis to cock up. and yet you seem comfortable with the most inept tory party in history winning another election. odd. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:28 - Sep 21 with 1046 views | pointofblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:21 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Why is the politics Corbyn and his supporters stand for defined as a sect whereas elsewhere in Europe it's referred to as sensible government - in the Nordic countries it's even referred to as the status quo.
You lost your version of Labour that wasn't a broad church at all. Time to move out the way for someone else to do a better job. |
How many MPs were sacked or quit the party during the New Labour years compared to now? It was such a narrow spectrum that Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott all remained within the party despite their views and disagreements with the front bench.
New Labour were just Conservative lite but at least there was a semblance of control, decision making and acceptance of opposing views. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:29 - Sep 21 with 1042 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:26 - Sep 21 by lowhouseblue |
you're seeing today why it's defined as a sect. if this is your idea of a 'better job' it rather questions what you are really trying to achieve. your 'better job' involves 3rd in the polls, ten points behind the tories, having no policy on brexit, being investigated by the ehrc, and stumbling from crisis to cock up. and yet you seem comfortable with the most inept tory party in history winning another election. odd. |
Of course, I'm not comfortable with the Tories winning an election.
But I'm just as uncomfortable with the media bias, smear campaigns and self-sabotage from within by supposed Labour party people that has helped the Tories and the Brexit disaster every step of the way.
It's a scummy situation. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:31 - Sep 21 with 1038 views | Guthrum |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:14 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
I'm sure they do. I'd just ask them to consider why they lost in 2010 and 2015 yet regained a lot of that ground in 2017 even while hammering their own leader. |
Labour lost 97 seats in 2010 (in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crash and having been in power for 13 years) and a further 26 in 2015 (a lot of those in Scotland). They only made 30 seats back in 2017, still an overall deficit of 93.
Corbyn went into the 2017 election with the endorsement of his overwhelming re-election as leader of the Party the previous September. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:31 - Sep 21 with 1037 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:28 - Sep 21 by pointofblue |
How many MPs were sacked or quit the party during the New Labour years compared to now? It was such a narrow spectrum that Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott all remained within the party despite their views and disagreements with the front bench.
New Labour were just Conservative lite but at least there was a semblance of control, decision making and acceptance of opposing views. |
"New Labour were just Conservative lite" ... exactly.
How on earth is that opposition except in a party political, Westminster bubble sense of the word? It's totally pointless and IMO not even close to what the country needs in 2019. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:35 - Sep 21 with 1032 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:31 - Sep 21 by Guthrum |
Labour lost 97 seats in 2010 (in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crash and having been in power for 13 years) and a further 26 in 2015 (a lot of those in Scotland). They only made 30 seats back in 2017, still an overall deficit of 93.
Corbyn went into the 2017 election with the endorsement of his overwhelming re-election as leader of the Party the previous September. |
But little to no support from the PLP leading up to that campaign and fighting off smears that the right of the party were actually starting.
I get it that the right of the Labour party don't get socialism but there are enough people in the UK who do. Backed up by millions around Europe who are also benefiting from it to balance the capitalism driving their economies. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:38 - Sep 21 with 1020 views | lowhouseblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:29 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
Of course, I'm not comfortable with the Tories winning an election.
But I'm just as uncomfortable with the media bias, smear campaigns and self-sabotage from within by supposed Labour party people that has helped the Tories and the Brexit disaster every step of the way.
It's a scummy situation. |
"just as uncomfortable"
so, as far you're concerned another 5 years of this tory government is no worse than people criticising corbyn. what a world view.
so when corbyn losses again and we have boris for 5 more years what will be your excuse for him to continue. will it be that the press have been nasty to him and his critics have criticised him? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:47 - Sep 21 with 1003 views | Darth_Koont |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:38 - Sep 21 by lowhouseblue |
"just as uncomfortable"
so, as far you're concerned another 5 years of this tory government is no worse than people criticising corbyn. what a world view.
so when corbyn losses again and we have boris for 5 more years what will be your excuse for him to continue. will it be that the press have been nasty to him and his critics have criticised him? |
The two are the same thing. In the current sordid political and media climate we end up with a government just like Johnson's. And we deserve it.
With your Corbyn paranoia, your Brexit Party leanings and your dishonesty, it'll suit you down to the ground. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:48 - Sep 21 with 997 views | pointofblue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:31 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
"New Labour were just Conservative lite" ... exactly.
How on earth is that opposition except in a party political, Westminster bubble sense of the word? It's totally pointless and IMO not even close to what the country needs in 2019. |
I'm not saying a socialist party is defunct in this day and age. I do think, however, they need to have firmer policies and stronger leadership than they currently have. This situation is similar to the 1980s, where all sides of the Labour Party were too busy navel gazing and fighting amongst themselves rather than opposing the Government. | |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:51 - Sep 21 with 990 views | BigManBlue |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:48 - Sep 21 by pointofblue |
I'm not saying a socialist party is defunct in this day and age. I do think, however, they need to have firmer policies and stronger leadership than they currently have. This situation is similar to the 1980s, where all sides of the Labour Party were too busy navel gazing and fighting amongst themselves rather than opposing the Government. |
Yup. I think of myself as very much a socialist and it's infuriating that so many others who apparently profess it spend their time arguing with those who, 90% of the time, agree with them about the 10% they don't! All the while ignoring or writing off the people we really need to be trying to win over. |  |
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| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:52 - Sep 21 with 990 views | Guthrum |
| To an outsider, Labour seem to be imploding on 09:35 - Sep 21 by Darth_Koont |
But little to no support from the PLP leading up to that campaign and fighting off smears that the right of the party were actually starting.
I get it that the right of the Labour party don't get socialism but there are enough people in the UK who do. Backed up by millions around Europe who are also benefiting from it to balance the capitalism driving their economies. |
Problem is, like it or not, this election isn't going to be about socialism, austerity or even economic/social policy at all. It's going to be about Brexit. An ersatz referendum on that one topic. The Conservatives and LibDems have made sure of that. I don't like it, but there we are. It would take superhuman strength to wrest the debate round to anything else without being drowned out.
The Conservatives, like Labour, are riven on this topic, but the clique currently running the former have manged to come up with a set of simplistic promises which will go into the manifesto*. By trying to be nuanced and reflect the divided feelings of their supporters, Labour just come across as weak (especially in the current UK media environment). And "irrelevant" when they try talking about other subjects.
* I don't think this will pay off for them, either. The position is too hard-line. | |
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