| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions 19:54 - Mar 14 with 9038 views | Crawfordsboot |
Whilst I believe that individuals, both military or civilian, guilty of crimes in the context of the troubles should be prosecuted I am uncomfortable with the prosecution of a soldier when many members of the IRA , who are believed to have committed acts of terrorism, are not being prosecuted, or have been granted early release in the interest of reaching a settlement and end to the troubles.
How can it be right to prosecute one side but not the other.
It might leave a bitter taste not to pursue prosecutions but to pursue one side but not those on the other side, who it is thought were responsible for more deaths, is surely not acceptable.
On the other hand if there is to be a prosecution shouldn’t it be the commanding officers in the dock not the foot soldiers. |  | | |  |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:01 - Mar 14 with 5687 views | Jonnosdreadlocks |
Spot on. Those who lost family in Birmingham Bombings are still waiting for IRA terrorists to be proseceuted. The GFA came about because there were painful sacrifices on both sides such as prison releases but it seems now British Soldiers who were on duty incredibly difficult and dangerous circumstances are being singled out yet IRA and UDA killers are being exempt. Insanity. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:27 - Mar 14 with 5632 views | No9 |
"Whilst I believe that individuals, both military or civilian, guilty of crimes in the context of the troubles should be prosecuted I am uncomfortable with the prosecution of a soldier when many members of the IRA ,"
There are presently 1800 cases ongoing at the moment. Only about 1/3rd of those involve cases against the British military. Obviously others share the same concerns as you do - another case of the UK media not presenting facts very well.
Some IRA under investigation were sent from the RoI to NI today. |  | | |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:31 - Mar 14 with 5620 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:27 - Mar 14 by No9 |
"Whilst I believe that individuals, both military or civilian, guilty of crimes in the context of the troubles should be prosecuted I am uncomfortable with the prosecution of a soldier when many members of the IRA ,"
There are presently 1800 cases ongoing at the moment. Only about 1/3rd of those involve cases against the British military. Obviously others share the same concerns as you do - another case of the UK media not presenting facts very well.
Some IRA under investigation were sent from the RoI to NI today. |
Interesting facts - thanks
I guess the issue then is one of consistency.
Also should it be the commanding officer or the foot soldier who should be prosecuted | | | |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:37 - Mar 14 with 5598 views | No9 |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:31 - Mar 14 by Crawfordsboot |
Interesting facts - thanks
I guess the issue then is one of consistency.
Also should it be the commanding officer or the foot soldier who should be prosecuted |
As far as the Bloody Sunday killings are concerned it was, at the time pretty obvious that is was the UK Government of the day Secretary for NI that should have been in the dock.
The way this government is managing NI matters the problems are again brewing
As far as the military are concerned Jhonny Mercer (ex miltary MP) was on the radio complaining that despite numerous hearings / meetings this government has still done nothing to protect the front line soldier | | | |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:41 - Mar 14 with 5598 views | WeWereZombies |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:31 - Mar 14 by Crawfordsboot |
Interesting facts - thanks
I guess the issue then is one of consistency.
Also should it be the commanding officer or the foot soldier who should be prosecuted |
It depends if the soldiers on the ground were obeying the officers or acting against orders. Given that in a highly pressured arena it can be difficult to function as required, but going beyond permissible actions should result in prosecution. It has taken a long time though, hasn't it? Both for the Parachute regiment, the IRA and UVF etc. paramilitaries to be fully brought to justice, not quite in line with the Magna Carta's 'Justice delayed is Justice denied'. I am also of the view that our government should never have let the conditions in Northern Ireland descend so quickly into a military situation. A stain on Harold Wilson's legacy. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:48 - Mar 14 with 5590 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:41 - Mar 14 by WeWereZombies |
It depends if the soldiers on the ground were obeying the officers or acting against orders. Given that in a highly pressured arena it can be difficult to function as required, but going beyond permissible actions should result in prosecution. It has taken a long time though, hasn't it? Both for the Parachute regiment, the IRA and UVF etc. paramilitaries to be fully brought to justice, not quite in line with the Magna Carta's 'Justice delayed is Justice denied'. I am also of the view that our government should never have let the conditions in Northern Ireland descend so quickly into a military situation. A stain on Harold Wilson's legacy. |
I believe that in this instance the commanding officer is on record as having said, prior to the incident, that it might be necessary to shoot protestors. They then send in the army’s shock troops so in my book responsibility in this case rests with command. | | | |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:53 - Mar 14 with 5589 views | hampstead_blue |
There are a lot of us who served in the province processing this.
I'm spitting feathers right now. Loads of us feel betrayed and rightly so. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 21:05 - Mar 14 with 5556 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 20:53 - Mar 14 by hampstead_blue |
There are a lot of us who served in the province processing this.
I'm spitting feathers right now. Loads of us feel betrayed and rightly so. |
Unless you were there on that day or have served in a conflict situation I think it is impossible to comment - so I won’t. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 07:49 - Mar 15 with 5338 views | hampstead_blue |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 21:05 - Mar 14 by Lord_Lucan |
Unless you were there on that day or have served in a conflict situation I think it is impossible to comment - so I won’t. |
I think there is a lot to consider.
We were drilled on the rule of engagement. At one point I could recite the darn cards they were printed on and in my pocket.
One thing I will say is that the IRA are properly nasty who gave no quarter to innocent people. Soldiers risked their lives in the open whilst often under the most severe stress and provocation.
Provocation came from women, children, older people. That is what you are dealing with.
The IRA used those as human shields, stood behind them and fired (on many occasions) and tools of their illegal actions.
I'm behind the Para's. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 08:00 - Mar 15 with 5311 views | footers |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 07:49 - Mar 15 by hampstead_blue |
I think there is a lot to consider.
We were drilled on the rule of engagement. At one point I could recite the darn cards they were printed on and in my pocket.
One thing I will say is that the IRA are properly nasty who gave no quarter to innocent people. Soldiers risked their lives in the open whilst often under the most severe stress and provocation.
Provocation came from women, children, older people. That is what you are dealing with.
The IRA used those as human shields, stood behind them and fired (on many occasions) and tools of their illegal actions.
I'm behind the Para's. |
The British army clearly gave no quarter to unarmed innocent civilians either.
If you find that to be appalling of the IRA then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 08:14 - Mar 15 with 5305 views | WeWereZombies |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 07:49 - Mar 15 by hampstead_blue |
I think there is a lot to consider.
We were drilled on the rule of engagement. At one point I could recite the darn cards they were printed on and in my pocket.
One thing I will say is that the IRA are properly nasty who gave no quarter to innocent people. Soldiers risked their lives in the open whilst often under the most severe stress and provocation.
Provocation came from women, children, older people. That is what you are dealing with.
The IRA used those as human shields, stood behind them and fired (on many occasions) and tools of their illegal actions.
I'm behind the Para's. |
I think that there can be no denying that it was a terrible environment to put soldiers into, the use of military force against citizens of your own state in a politically charged situation for decades. And the IRA (the UVF also) exploited that.
All I can do is form opinion based on my remote experiences from those times, the TV reporting of Bloody Sunday that outraged me as a 17 year old, a book called 'War and an Irish Town' by journalist Eamonn McCann, a lad I used to sit next to at school who joined up and was serving in Northern Ireland a year later, a Scots woman who I met and told me about when she took up with an Ulsterman who treated her like royalty but when she came out of a bank to withdraw some more of his money in Derry/Londonderry she dropped all her shopping because she was completely unprepared for the sight of a soldier prone on the ground with his rifle pointing straight at her (and then a couple of minutes later moved to point at someone else).
Hellish times even on the ordinary everyday level and that is before you think of people getting shot dead just for attending a protest, the two off duty soldiers who took a wrong turning and ended up in the middle of an IRA funeral where they were stripped to their underpants and killed, the paramilitary butcher boys and so on and on.
The secrecy that went on in those times, the lack of openness, only made matters worse and clouded any chance of justice and decency. People on all sides were forced into doing things they did not want to and got compromised as a result. I don't think it helps to be on anyone's side in this but I appreciate from your position it is difficult not to be. | |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 09:59 - Mar 15 with 5252 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 21:05 - Mar 14 by Lord_Lucan |
Unless you were there on that day or have served in a conflict situation I think it is impossible to comment - so I won’t. |
I think that's probably the most sensible thing for those of us who don't have a clue what it must have been like.
Having said that  , the one thing ringing alarm bells for me is that Williamson seems to have implied that the Government will look to change laws so that the forces can't be held accountable for their actions. Surely they need to be bound by law, and presumably international law applies too? Forces unbound by law is what you tend to see in dictatorships.
Maybe I've misunderstood what he was implying, but that the way it seemed to me. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 11:10 - Mar 15 with 5202 views | No9 |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 08:00 - Mar 15 by footers |
The British army clearly gave no quarter to unarmed innocent civilians either.
If you find that to be appalling of the IRA then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. |
One of the reports says the Irishman came out with a white handkerchief as a sign of surrender & was shot in cold blood.
I don't know how true that is but it is sadi to be part of the prosecution evidence.
More importantly is, was there a shoot to kill policy put in place by the government of the day
What is abundantly clear is that sad day set in motion the process of many more lost lives.
& we should not overlook the fact that it was British guns shooting British citizens in reality a truly awful situation. | | | |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:00 - Mar 15 with 5140 views | hampstead_blue |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 08:00 - Mar 15 by footers |
The British army clearly gave no quarter to unarmed innocent civilians either.
If you find that to be appalling of the IRA then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. |
Not sure how to react.
Part of me wants to pick you up, transport you back, and come on patrol with us in our plan clothes car and on foot wearing civvies in some of the most hostile places.
You'd pee yourself with fear and end up cowering in the corner of a garden. Don't worry, the British Army would be there to bail you out.
The British Army were subjected to dog's abuse from women, children, the lot. All of that on the instruction of the IRA.
The IRA never observed the Geneva convention and brutally murdered British soldiers and innocent civvies. Robert Nairac and the two Royal Signals Corporals spring to mind.
I saw the full video of what they did to the Corporals. Do you still want to defend the IRA or maybe you can see that they deserve nothing. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:16 - Mar 15 with 5122 views | baxterbasics |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:00 - Mar 15 by hampstead_blue |
Not sure how to react.
Part of me wants to pick you up, transport you back, and come on patrol with us in our plan clothes car and on foot wearing civvies in some of the most hostile places.
You'd pee yourself with fear and end up cowering in the corner of a garden. Don't worry, the British Army would be there to bail you out.
The British Army were subjected to dog's abuse from women, children, the lot. All of that on the instruction of the IRA.
The IRA never observed the Geneva convention and brutally murdered British soldiers and innocent civvies. Robert Nairac and the two Royal Signals Corporals spring to mind.
I saw the full video of what they did to the Corporals. Do you still want to defend the IRA or maybe you can see that they deserve nothing. |
I remember learning about those two lads who took a wrong turn into a Republican funeral procession, only to be dragged out of their vehicle, taken away and executed. I understand the illiterate b*stards misread their identities and assumed they were SAS.
Two good films come to mind for understanding these things better. Bloody Sunday by Paul Greengrass, which came across to me as pretty even handed, and '71, a fictional account of a British squaddie lost in the wrong neighbourhood. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:35 - Mar 15 with 5089 views | hampstead_blue |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:16 - Mar 15 by baxterbasics |
I remember learning about those two lads who took a wrong turn into a Republican funeral procession, only to be dragged out of their vehicle, taken away and executed. I understand the illiterate b*stards misread their identities and assumed they were SAS.
Two good films come to mind for understanding these things better. Bloody Sunday by Paul Greengrass, which came across to me as pretty even handed, and '71, a fictional account of a British squaddie lost in the wrong neighbourhood. |
I understand the illiterate b*stards misread their identities and assumed they were SAS.
One of the blokes was handing over to the new guy. He was doing a tour of the patch.
The crowd didn't mis-read the ID, as the Regt don't work that way. Army ID is the same but they should not have been carrying any for the role they had.
The fact that they had browning high power pistols to hand was enough for the mob to know they were British soldiers. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:39 - Mar 15 with 5080 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:00 - Mar 15 by hampstead_blue |
Not sure how to react.
Part of me wants to pick you up, transport you back, and come on patrol with us in our plan clothes car and on foot wearing civvies in some of the most hostile places.
You'd pee yourself with fear and end up cowering in the corner of a garden. Don't worry, the British Army would be there to bail you out.
The British Army were subjected to dog's abuse from women, children, the lot. All of that on the instruction of the IRA.
The IRA never observed the Geneva convention and brutally murdered British soldiers and innocent civvies. Robert Nairac and the two Royal Signals Corporals spring to mind.
I saw the full video of what they did to the Corporals. Do you still want to defend the IRA or maybe you can see that they deserve nothing. |
Jesus. I can't even begin to imagine.
Surely that all the more reason why we need to avoid anything that puts a hard border back, promotes more division, etc., etc? | |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:46 - Mar 15 with 5060 views | footers |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:00 - Mar 15 by hampstead_blue |
Not sure how to react.
Part of me wants to pick you up, transport you back, and come on patrol with us in our plan clothes car and on foot wearing civvies in some of the most hostile places.
You'd pee yourself with fear and end up cowering in the corner of a garden. Don't worry, the British Army would be there to bail you out.
The British Army were subjected to dog's abuse from women, children, the lot. All of that on the instruction of the IRA.
The IRA never observed the Geneva convention and brutally murdered British soldiers and innocent civvies. Robert Nairac and the two Royal Signals Corporals spring to mind.
I saw the full video of what they did to the Corporals. Do you still want to defend the IRA or maybe you can see that they deserve nothing. |
If you read my post very carefully you will see that I have in no way defended the IRA. You are reading what you want to read.
The British Army are professional soldiers. These people were innocent, unarmed and were murdered.
Not sure what else there is to argue. | |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:59 - Mar 15 with 5050 views | SouperJim |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:46 - Mar 15 by footers |
If you read my post very carefully you will see that I have in no way defended the IRA. You are reading what you want to read.
The British Army are professional soldiers. These people were innocent, unarmed and were murdered.
Not sure what else there is to argue. |
They were human beings who felt threatened enough to use force to defend their own lives.
Clearly a very complex situation with differing accounts from both sides. I don't think you or I are qualified to judge. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 13:00 - Mar 15 with 5038 views | footers |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:59 - Mar 15 by SouperJim |
They were human beings who felt threatened enough to use force to defend their own lives.
Clearly a very complex situation with differing accounts from both sides. I don't think you or I are qualified to judge. |
Thank you for explaining the situation. | |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 13:16 - Mar 15 with 5025 views | hampstead_blue |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:46 - Mar 15 by footers |
If you read my post very carefully you will see that I have in no way defended the IRA. You are reading what you want to read.
The British Army are professional soldiers. These people were innocent, unarmed and were murdered.
Not sure what else there is to argue. |
what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I read that as you are implying that the rule of law works both ways?
I'm not looking for an argument.
The problem is that the IRA break the law, we abide by it.
There needs to be a method of giving us legal 'top cover' to allow for circumstances.
No soldier is above the law, but you do need to support us more. Sor Michael Fallon made the point yesterday that the IRA have been treated with kid gloves. were as the Army have been kicked around like a dog.
No argument from me, I just think that your statement I quoted is wrong. :-) | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 13:25 - Mar 15 with 5001 views | Darth_Koont |
Slight difference is that those who have been released have had their crimes and sentences assessed whereas with soldiers involved in the Bloody Sunday massacre no public recognition of a crime has been lodged.
I think there should certainly be leniency where possible and I doubt custodial sentences will be appropriate. I think it is important to formally recognise crimes when they are committed though.
That sort of recognition is an important part of a peace and reconciliation process. Punishment less so. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 13:43 - Mar 15 with 4960 views | GeoffSentence |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 12:35 - Mar 15 by hampstead_blue |
I understand the illiterate b*stards misread their identities and assumed they were SAS.
One of the blokes was handing over to the new guy. He was doing a tour of the patch.
The crowd didn't mis-read the ID, as the Regt don't work that way. Army ID is the same but they should not have been carrying any for the role they had.
The fact that they had browning high power pistols to hand was enough for the mob to know they were British soldiers. |
Wasn't it their ID cards said that they were based in Hertford, and the IRA took that as Hereford and assumed they were SAS. |  |
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 15:16 - Mar 15 with 4895 views | jeera |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 08:00 - Mar 15 by footers |
The British army clearly gave no quarter to unarmed innocent civilians either.
If you find that to be appalling of the IRA then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. |
Without wishing to get too involved, he does make a significant point about the soldiers being out in the open.
Literally on patrol with no idea where the next threat may come from must create the most tense of situations.
I've read some of the atrocities that occurred, and by no means were a number of soldiers innocent, but at the same time I hope due consideration is given to those who were; either following strict orders, or not equipped to deal with the situation they were thrown into.
*Edited punctuation. [Post edited 16 Mar 2019 2:53]
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| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 15:44 - Mar 15 with 4880 views | No9 |
| Bloody Sunday Prosecutions on 15:16 - Mar 15 by jeera |
Without wishing to get too involved, he does make a significant point about the soldiers being out in the open.
Literally on patrol with no idea where the next threat may come from must create the most tense of situations.
I've read some of the atrocities that occurred, and by no means were a number of soldiers innocent, but at the same time I hope due consideration is given to those who were; either following strict orders, or not equipped to deal with the situation they were thrown into.
*Edited punctuation. [Post edited 16 Mar 2019 2:53]
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From W Whitelaw then N.I. Sec
"Finally, I can assure the House and the whole community in Northern Ireland that the Government will be completely resolute in their determination to end terrorism through the use of the security forces, but they will not be panicked or pushed into over-reaction which could well destroy the chances of communal peace." | | | |
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