| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:37 - Jul 21 with 4745 views | J2BLUE |
Thank you for posting that. I have just read all three of those. Apologies to Brunswick, he's just more educated on the issue than I am.
Lots to think about there. |  |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:51 - Jul 21 with 4734 views | gordon |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:37 - Jul 21 by J2BLUE |
Thank you for posting that. I have just read all three of those. Apologies to Brunswick, he's just more educated on the issue than I am.
Lots to think about there. |
Typically you have to be really careful before assuming that an environmental standard achieves anything meaningful. Palm Oil is another good example - most Palm Oil comes from Indonesia where massive amounts of Rainforest have been lost to monocultures of palm oil. Javan Rhino has been effectively made extinct, and Orangutans and Sumatran Elephant will probably follow.
Unilever Nestle and Pepsico who all use massive amounts of Palm Oil because it is cheaper than alternatives got together and decided they faced severe 'reputational risk' if they were held responsible for the loss of such iconic species.
So the 'Sustainably Source Palm Oil' logo was born. But all that is effectively required to qualify as sustainably sourced is that the land the palm oil is produced on wasn't deforested within the last five years. The result is that deforestation is continuing just as fast as before, but those companies willing to pay a tiny fraction more for 'sustainably sourced' palm oil absolve themselves and their customers from guilt. |  | | |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 16:03 - Jul 21 with 4730 views | Ryorry |
The Guardian article immediately rubbishes itself in the worst tabloid style with the headline downright lie "There’s no such thing as an ethical egg". They need to visit all my various neighbours' hens running around the fields all day - theirs are the eggs I buy.
It's correct that hens HAD to be kept in, by law, *for a few weeks* during the bird flu scare.
As for the rest - I'm sure such conditions exist, but all free range birds are *not* kept like that. People need to be more careful and do their own research before buying.
Some clue can be gained from the colour of the yolk - anything pale yellow, the bird hasn't eaten a blade of grass in the couple of days before laying.
All birds running around on grass will eat some of it, and this will always result in a deep yellow yolk of the egg. However, some feed (including organic) may have colourant such as marigold flower added, and this will also turn the yolk deep yellow. And of course grass could always be cut and fed fresh to indoor kept chooks - I used to do this for any of mine which I had to keep in because of injury. |  |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 16:35 - Jul 21 with 4705 views | gordon |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 16:03 - Jul 21 by Ryorry |
The Guardian article immediately rubbishes itself in the worst tabloid style with the headline downright lie "There’s no such thing as an ethical egg". They need to visit all my various neighbours' hens running around the fields all day - theirs are the eggs I buy.
It's correct that hens HAD to be kept in, by law, *for a few weeks* during the bird flu scare.
As for the rest - I'm sure such conditions exist, but all free range birds are *not* kept like that. People need to be more careful and do their own research before buying.
Some clue can be gained from the colour of the yolk - anything pale yellow, the bird hasn't eaten a blade of grass in the couple of days before laying.
All birds running around on grass will eat some of it, and this will always result in a deep yellow yolk of the egg. However, some feed (including organic) may have colourant such as marigold flower added, and this will also turn the yolk deep yellow. And of course grass could always be cut and fed fresh to indoor kept chooks - I used to do this for any of mine which I had to keep in because of injury. |
The point isn't that all free range birds are kept like that. The point is that they can be kept like that and be labelled free range, and if you buy eggs in a supermarket, you could be supporting such practices. | | | |
| on 16:41 - Jul 21 with 4693 views | _ |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:29 - Jul 21 with 4673 views | No9 |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:51 - Jul 21 by gordon |
Typically you have to be really careful before assuming that an environmental standard achieves anything meaningful. Palm Oil is another good example - most Palm Oil comes from Indonesia where massive amounts of Rainforest have been lost to monocultures of palm oil. Javan Rhino has been effectively made extinct, and Orangutans and Sumatran Elephant will probably follow.
Unilever Nestle and Pepsico who all use massive amounts of Palm Oil because it is cheaper than alternatives got together and decided they faced severe 'reputational risk' if they were held responsible for the loss of such iconic species.
So the 'Sustainably Source Palm Oil' logo was born. But all that is effectively required to qualify as sustainably sourced is that the land the palm oil is produced on wasn't deforested within the last five years. The result is that deforestation is continuing just as fast as before, but those companies willing to pay a tiny fraction more for 'sustainably sourced' palm oil absolve themselves and their customers from guilt. |
From what I witnessed Malaysia is also guilty of the palm oil problem.
Reading the book 'Belch Out the Devil' makes one aware that Coca Cola are also envorimental vandals at the expense of the locals who have to go short of water
& how much rainforrest goes to provide Mc D with cheap beef?
What is worse is that much waste is generated from all this exploitation | | | |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 00:15 - Jul 22 with 4615 views | Ryorry |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 16:35 - Jul 21 by gordon |
The point isn't that all free range birds are kept like that. The point is that they can be kept like that and be labelled free range, and if you buy eggs in a supermarket, you could be supporting such practices. |
Which is why I said "People need to be more careful and do their own research before buying."
It's pretty easy to do that these days - most producers have their names and locations printed on the boxes, even when sold in supermarkets, and tend to be local-ish. If they're not thus traceable/visible in reality, don't buy em. If you track them down and aren't happy with what you see, don't buy em. [Post edited 22 Jul 2017 0:16]
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 11:17 - Jul 22 with 4557 views | No9 |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 00:15 - Jul 22 by Ryorry |
Which is why I said "People need to be more careful and do their own research before buying."
It's pretty easy to do that these days - most producers have their names and locations printed on the boxes, even when sold in supermarkets, and tend to be local-ish. If they're not thus traceable/visible in reality, don't buy em. If you track them down and aren't happy with what you see, don't buy em. [Post edited 22 Jul 2017 0:16]
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I have complained recently about foodstuffs being on sale with no place of origin shown and no info on the contents of the pack.
I believe we are going to see more of this | | | |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 11:41 - Jul 22 with 4550 views | Ryorry |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 11:17 - Jul 22 by No9 |
I have complained recently about foodstuffs being on sale with no place of origin shown and no info on the contents of the pack.
I believe we are going to see more of this |
Isn't traceability a legal requirement now?
Anyway, if people stopped buying such stuff, producers would make sure conditions for their livestock withstood scrutiny sufficiently for them to be proud to put their names/locations on the packaging. | |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 12:51 - Jul 22 with 4530 views | gordon |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 11:41 - Jul 22 by Ryorry |
Isn't traceability a legal requirement now?
Anyway, if people stopped buying such stuff, producers would make sure conditions for their livestock withstood scrutiny sufficiently for them to be proud to put their names/locations on the packaging. |
Country of origin is only a legal requirement for beef sold in the UK. Pork, for example doesn't have any requirement, even on country of origin - lots of what is sold as Danish bacon in the UK for example, will have been processed in Denmark and the meat produced in South America or Asia to very low standards.
Full traceability would be prohibitively expensive - a significant proportion of Beef, Pork, Poultry and Dairy that's consumed globally is bought/sold on commodity markets, with zero traceability, just with minimum hygiene and quality standards.
Tesco, for example, sell lots of its products now with made up farm names to make it sound more homely and quaint. | | | |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 13:05 - Jul 22 with 4521 views | Ryorry |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 12:51 - Jul 22 by gordon |
Country of origin is only a legal requirement for beef sold in the UK. Pork, for example doesn't have any requirement, even on country of origin - lots of what is sold as Danish bacon in the UK for example, will have been processed in Denmark and the meat produced in South America or Asia to very low standards.
Full traceability would be prohibitively expensive - a significant proportion of Beef, Pork, Poultry and Dairy that's consumed globally is bought/sold on commodity markets, with zero traceability, just with minimum hygiene and quality standards.
Tesco, for example, sell lots of its products now with made up farm names to make it sound more homely and quaint. |
All the more reason for people to do their own proper research then - stick with schemes like the Red Tractor, local butchers who can prove they source locally, or buy organic.
https://www.redtractor.org.uk/what-we-do
https://www.redtractor.org.uk/what-we-do (this should take you to the 'where to buy' section, just fill in your postcode, but links don't seem to be differentiating).
I think it's important to stress that ethically produced meat and eggs, with excellent welfare standards for the animals concerned, are available to buy in the UK - consumers just need to spend a few short minutes doing their homework.
Edit: local farmshops are of course another good source. [Post edited 22 Jul 2017 13:08]
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 13:38 - Jul 22 with 4503 views | gordon |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 13:05 - Jul 22 by Ryorry |
All the more reason for people to do their own proper research then - stick with schemes like the Red Tractor, local butchers who can prove they source locally, or buy organic.
https://www.redtractor.org.uk/what-we-do
https://www.redtractor.org.uk/what-we-do (this should take you to the 'where to buy' section, just fill in your postcode, but links don't seem to be differentiating).
I think it's important to stress that ethically produced meat and eggs, with excellent welfare standards for the animals concerned, are available to buy in the UK - consumers just need to spend a few short minutes doing their homework.
Edit: local farmshops are of course another good source. [Post edited 22 Jul 2017 13:08]
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The welfare standards to get Red Tractor accreditation for pork are the legal minimum welfare standards in the UK. Red Tractor guarantees that the meat is British, not illegally produced, and nothing more. | | | |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 13:41 - Jul 22 with 4500 views | J2BLUE |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 12:51 - Jul 22 by gordon |
Country of origin is only a legal requirement for beef sold in the UK. Pork, for example doesn't have any requirement, even on country of origin - lots of what is sold as Danish bacon in the UK for example, will have been processed in Denmark and the meat produced in South America or Asia to very low standards.
Full traceability would be prohibitively expensive - a significant proportion of Beef, Pork, Poultry and Dairy that's consumed globally is bought/sold on commodity markets, with zero traceability, just with minimum hygiene and quality standards.
Tesco, for example, sell lots of its products now with made up farm names to make it sound more homely and quaint. |
I'd really like to keep this thread going. I know some people are bored of it but I really appreciate the info.
I've discovered Waitrose's Blacktail eggs are from genuinely free range hens and they pay their farmers a premium not to trim their beaks. Also found out that the soil association ban beak trimming so any organic eggs will be from untrimmed hens. | |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 13:53 - Jul 22 with 4494 views | gordon |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 13:41 - Jul 22 by J2BLUE |
I'd really like to keep this thread going. I know some people are bored of it but I really appreciate the info.
I've discovered Waitrose's Blacktail eggs are from genuinely free range hens and they pay their farmers a premium not to trim their beaks. Also found out that the soil association ban beak trimming so any organic eggs will be from untrimmed hens. |
It's interesting, yes, and for background I'm mainly vegetarian myself (but not strict, I eat hill-shot venison from an estate nearby, and every now and then other meat, and do eat eggs from chickens I share with neighbours, and from supermarkets when I need to).
I worked a little bit on product traceability a good few years ago now, and it's quite shocking to learn that sustainability/environmental standards that people put faith in are often largely industry marketing tools, like Red Tractor or RSPO (Sustainable Palm Oil). But of course there are good ones too.
Here's a good article about Red Tractor:
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/consuming-issues-what-that-tiny-re
Ethical consumption certainly shouldn't stop at meat/dairy, as well. | | | |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:23 - Jul 22 with 4468 views | Ryorry |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 13:38 - Jul 22 by gordon |
The welfare standards to get Red Tractor accreditation for pork are the legal minimum welfare standards in the UK. Red Tractor guarantees that the meat is British, not illegally produced, and nothing more. |
I keep re-iterating that people need to do their own research. Please do read the RT website.
It REALLY IS possible to source, check out and eat ethically produced meat and eggs in the UK. I do it all the time and so do many I know (I agree it's easier if you live in the sticks, but if people have a car, there are nice days out to be had in the process).
Edit: Written before reading your last post, sorry!
[Post edited 22 Jul 2017 15:36]
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:33 - Jul 22 with 4461 views | Ryorry |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 13:41 - Jul 22 by J2BLUE |
I'd really like to keep this thread going. I know some people are bored of it but I really appreciate the info.
I've discovered Waitrose's Blacktail eggs are from genuinely free range hens and they pay their farmers a premium not to trim their beaks. Also found out that the soil association ban beak trimming so any organic eggs will be from untrimmed hens. |
I'm surprised you didn't previously know that (proper) organically produced meat simply would never countenance such cruel practices as beak trimming, but pleased you've now found out!
I was getting pretty fed up with the thread tbh, as there seem to be determined efforts around to suggest it's not possible to source ethically produced meat and eggs whereas I know that it 100% is if people just bother to look/google/visit a little. However, your comment's encouraged me a little that maybe it is worth keeping going - if only more bothered to educate themselves! | |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:47 - Jul 22 with 4450 views | gordon |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:23 - Jul 22 by Ryorry |
I keep re-iterating that people need to do their own research. Please do read the RT website.
It REALLY IS possible to source, check out and eat ethically produced meat and eggs in the UK. I do it all the time and so do many I know (I agree it's easier if you live in the sticks, but if people have a car, there are nice days out to be had in the process).
Edit: Written before reading your last post, sorry!
[Post edited 22 Jul 2017 15:36]
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Red Tractor accreditation requires farmers meet no environmental or welfare standards beyond what's in UK law though. Red Tractor is operated by the National Farmers Union, and is widely accepted to have done more harm than good, in giving people the impression they were getting some assurance of welfare or environmental standards beyond the bare minimum. | | | |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 16:03 - Jul 22 with 4439 views | Ryorry |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 15:47 - Jul 22 by gordon |
Red Tractor accreditation requires farmers meet no environmental or welfare standards beyond what's in UK law though. Red Tractor is operated by the National Farmers Union, and is widely accepted to have done more harm than good, in giving people the impression they were getting some assurance of welfare or environmental standards beyond the bare minimum. |
I'm sorry Gordon, but whilst I appreciate what you're doing to educate people (including myself!) I think you're going too far in your negativity and that this may actually put people off bothering to do their own sourcing or checks (a sort of "oh well they all seem to be as bad as each other so I might as well not bother" approach).
I must admit I'd not bothered with Red Tractor before today - I don't need to - as I said earlier, I can see my beef, lamb and eggs running around from my house or car windows - plus of course there are many farm shops people can visit for themselves or shop at online. Here's one of my Yorkshire favs -
https://keelhamfarmshop.co.uk/ | |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:18 - Jul 22 with 4409 views | J2BLUE |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 16:03 - Jul 22 by Ryorry |
I'm sorry Gordon, but whilst I appreciate what you're doing to educate people (including myself!) I think you're going too far in your negativity and that this may actually put people off bothering to do their own sourcing or checks (a sort of "oh well they all seem to be as bad as each other so I might as well not bother" approach).
I must admit I'd not bothered with Red Tractor before today - I don't need to - as I said earlier, I can see my beef, lamb and eggs running around from my house or car windows - plus of course there are many farm shops people can visit for themselves or shop at online. Here's one of my Yorkshire favs -
https://keelhamfarmshop.co.uk/ |
You can see your eggs running around?  | |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:35 - Jul 22 with 4389 views | jeera |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:18 - Jul 22 by J2BLUE |
You can see your eggs running around? |
*insert something about you and eggs here* |  |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:49 - Jul 22 with 4375 views | Ryorry |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:18 - Jul 22 by J2BLUE |
You can see your eggs running around? |
Haha, Freudian slip, maybe my subconscious wanted to add (ahem) layers (cough) of meaning just for you, knowing your preferences re egg-cooking! | |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:50 - Jul 22 with 4373 views | Herbivore |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 09:25 - Jul 20 by WD19 |
The population and our consumption levels are rising.
However, it is not a problem and there is nothing unsustainable about it. You just don't like it, which is your prerogative. Every individual will have to make a choice re: pricing and what they are prepared to eat/accept. [Post edited 20 Jul 2017 9:26]
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It isn't sustainable. If you think current levels of meat production are sustainable you should watch the documentary Cowspiracy, I suspect it'll change your mind regarding sustainability. |  |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:58 - Jul 22 with 4359 views | StokieBlue |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 17:50 - Jul 22 by Herbivore |
It isn't sustainable. If you think current levels of meat production are sustainable you should watch the documentary Cowspiracy, I suspect it'll change your mind regarding sustainability. |
The human population is the issue, there are so many of us that generally there isn't enough stuff to sustain us.
Nothing really can be done about that though, people will continue to live longer on average and "developing" countries will continue to grow their population.
Nigeria is predicted to have 500m people by 2050. A truly ludicrous number of people for the 32nd largest country in the world.
SB |  |
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| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 08:21 - Jul 23 with 4292 views | No9 |
| Intensive farming in Britain - The problem is growing on 16:03 - Jul 22 by Ryorry |
I'm sorry Gordon, but whilst I appreciate what you're doing to educate people (including myself!) I think you're going too far in your negativity and that this may actually put people off bothering to do their own sourcing or checks (a sort of "oh well they all seem to be as bad as each other so I might as well not bother" approach).
I must admit I'd not bothered with Red Tractor before today - I don't need to - as I said earlier, I can see my beef, lamb and eggs running around from my house or car windows - plus of course there are many farm shops people can visit for themselves or shop at online. Here's one of my Yorkshire favs -
https://keelhamfarmshop.co.uk/ |
We have a lot of farm shops where I live but they are now no longer credible because they have moved from selling farm produce to selling produce e.g they don't grow pineapples in Suffolk / Norfolk. No longer is the objective to sell quality food it is now no different from the supermarket.
Pity. | | | |
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